Re: [Spud] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-transports-over-udp-01.txt

Tom Herbert <> Fri, 08 July 2016 15:36 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8340512D51C for <>; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.6
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kXjpkZYqtIHM for <>; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE01812D0C9 for <>; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id t74so10185903ioi.0 for <>; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 08:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rqg+7wWZSGk8Zgld6G7bi/k6mEXc5Nq4WiaiCThHbVA=; b=uCURSVtkahuSgrEUvU/FQFzm6XhC+X5207yjQsRSyKzbiSrlLF+BT/p/twrlbgH2e6 h4eH86TcRko565YqjcYogMv0QToq2+ACcwTy9n5QtDt9Hb3LHxarp22DnyNpaQ628Rl+ Nn8tVO2FVeL51/R3Afk+5hY+Gd4dMy/j0b10y66y+sp0gUij9ejVsNi1DrARvB+9Rxcg HlTmFPKATV6iuyQKA3Zj2Lku3RS9KxHmlE1UFY42ja7JF8YKUK1OjXagiwuUOoooHsUM HoqLR1zaZFcjTqJxlLadg+vAvDBUZKIoyFjw2dRd3HqJuotPk5+RKCh9ynLRkaAemwwG YzWg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rqg+7wWZSGk8Zgld6G7bi/k6mEXc5Nq4WiaiCThHbVA=; b=ZwFNtZB81oBr4Glj228H+gGxVXhrKggrDfQ50O6ycJIsu4C1jh41qt3st9lEXnwoyK 0icwmYXytdzISkUZwVP5z5i4TuzzubxCQxeBY9iS/PnsI6dD+IpFI1xb28mENBocKV0Y a8metouaEGcmZe/QQrZqwBumzAvJDt9CqyrLCcpdCgPVFSno65CM0P9Ypaevpw7Fb0ZZ +5CKKftAaZppIh1S11anrNncEkTP66tun+N4+5ZA8LTFBbPkkpns6d/veZKjG1KClk8i Aji3r73X0lo1YCTc6eOr0hCphGikQZmmJDg06KmLVtkklA6DlmCVO43NbwQ4d0CDC8Xc oPyA==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLXZa4dSoU0vSoo/BycvJ0NUw/QVpxXNNsRbiO/WqknnFX4+SohN8y7NfyU1LMg6YDrRNk6L+jSn7zXnw==
X-Received: by with SMTP id v71mr1242070ioi.107.1467992170197; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 08:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by with HTTP; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <> <> <>
From: Tom Herbert <>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:36:09 -0500
Message-ID: <>
To: Aaron Falk <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Archived-At: <>
Cc: Blake Matheny <>, Natasha Rooney <>, spud <>
Subject: Re: [Spud] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-transports-over-udp-01.txt
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: Session Protocol Underneath Datagrams <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2016 15:36:24 -0000

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Aaron Falk <> wrote:
> Hi Tom-
> One explicit goal of PLUS is to enable controlled communication between
> endpoints and devices on the network path. As I understand it, TOU is
> designed to preclude that communication.  As this is a BoF about chartering
> a working group around PLUS, the TOU draft neither addresses PLUS motivation
> (e.g., why we need to communicate to middleboxes?) or architecture (e.g.,
> how could we make this communication work in an world with pervasive
> encryption?).  Since there was some email discussion of your draft on this
> list, Brian has tried to address the distinction between PLUS and TOU in his
> slide deck (specifically, slide 20) and I encourage you to send any
> clarification comments to him.

I would agree if the goal of PLUS was to provide signaling to network
path for any existing transport protocols (IMO this would have been a
better goal). But, PLUS is explicitly being described for use with
transport protocols over _UDP_. Such transport protocols don't really
even exist yet (TOU and QUIC are being proposed). Without
understanding how transport protocols over UDP will even work I think
it is difficult to design another layer intended to work with them.