Return-Path: X-Original-To: ssh@mail2.ietf.org Delivered-To: ssh@mail2.ietf.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2B4E4D4CBF; Tue, 28 Apr 2026 07:58:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1777388309; bh=auHTlD91nBu/Cf+avPhf2IHhRoxjS8Ev59b+oxG65gc=; h=Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:To:References; b=vBEPi/O5othw6AFizjxAGu54O9EtTrmfxyJzdlAtdGyOVfyqV0T5AWr7N/x7eiGPm a3Tfh131N8lIPdAGOjpPrRUZPLsbqQFNI3LZF4aW1DXD6D+R2J0UtAN0XE46XFlAXN SgC6TKhURzUrOMY8C9gvSPguH0h3jf5YRJ55lBO0= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bofa.com Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VWSJJGePClCN; Tue, 28 Apr 2026 07:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bankofamerica.com (rdnemail.bankofamerica.com [171.161.147.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5888E4D4C56; Tue, 28 Apr 2026 07:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from txdmzmailmx07.bankofamerica.com ([171.180.168.234]) by lrdna0mzxepmx04.bankofamerica.com (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPS id 63SEw0Lb043617 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:58:01 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bofa.com; s=corp2202; t=1777388281; bh=2O5jS9RDhe/uzaBlSf91K9EcOsVTLpunX5RvZzObhB0=; h=Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:To:References; b=obz+49rX1bFK65h1rt1vH+NxAkWPIYcoFOn6N3e7oIWRNSq+p7auhzKKT8HkUrpjV o606i6k/hEmgygpITqexk9le35JN5YVtr0emjv56GP1H2GFFghDs0Ey3wNhLJTX9oc mPazEbM1+g8dA7ZcfD73FIo3XwCFX6DRkCTi0GgGjmqAvkPy1T0Ye5nIvdDbd8ho+O MLIOfqcuNLFbEXbEMkDIdg167UfY3bHOX9AQY2oaiTFK44e2j0aSTyqUP6syAq9tWq 4jbtp4QkL1khjrYxTMSTqEhKCmMebYNKH8UODdvv9N0N9MDvJxHH6FOCmiTD7GAQzV iRWw/zJaNseUA== Received: from ltwppra01.sdi.corp.bankofamerica.com (ltwppra01.sdi.corp.bankofamerica.com [30.102.120.35]) by txdmzmailmx07.bankofamerica.com (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPS id 63SEw0DR037960 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:58:00 GMT Received: from pps.filterd (ltwppra01.sdi.corp.bankofamerica.com [127.0.0.1]) by ltwppra01.sdi.corp.bankofamerica.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 63SEVmtP021717; Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:58:00 GMT Received: from ahp-cmta-ltw-01.sdi.corp.bankofamerica.com (ahp-cmta-ltw-01.sdi.corp.bankofamerica.com [30.52.216.47]) by ltwppra01.sdi.corp.bankofamerica.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 4drkwwp085-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:58:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2026 14:57:57 +0000 From: "Appel, Ryan" In-reply-to: To: "Salz, Rich" , Stephen Farrell , "ssh@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Gt+/sjpNiuJ/LYclG44UFn)"; type="multipart/alternative" Content-language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Accept-Language: en-US Thread-topic: [Ssh] Re: PQ signatures - where do we want to end up? Thread-index: AQHc1w25ZDT6SE3lTEaW5nExnS8y1bX05bcA//+q+g8= X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tm-snts-smtp: 29C344ABA09BC2E28C8DB9E5A1847B7DCE2CBAFF6FA6C1D231EE123E3B931F072000:8 References: X-Proofpoint-GUID: yDV8HJ0N2Tdt5IgGaF2lnI-vhrXJGVoQ X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: yDV8HJ0N2Tdt5IgGaF2lnI-vhrXJGVoQ X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details-Enc: AW1haW4tMjYwNDI4MDE0MiBTYWx0ZWRfX/fj7WaUI2xi7 bWJrv/k0OCdLiwFQ+Z4aAJKvzrNlsXA4m20jcLN/9i1wK0ZFd50dJm1eJcVmFZwKBxBiJemgEuM yw4kuK7qM7RGQ8sCW5ilo4I3KLSS7XTh3hZezw0gBGrSH7fPOjTP3NbQ6jfhBadGbKsxtpXSTUW SFVlf7g2itbHB1kwXFPy6qM3x4pLuwVzBKiSFXIc2jvHNuDDdLKVQ2Qdhlt8FATAOkzwopb6MiA RwLDeExsBdHNIZe83ulccQuiOTxcBq4KhzGrZb0GNMq9Uouttpza5jU/YWsSyudO5pfsvNROTN1 Db5q6aH8IETP06VP+K1 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1143,Hydra:6.1.51,FMLib:17.12.100.49 definitions=2026-04-28_04,2026-04-28_01,2025-10-01_01 Message-ID-Hash: 2RGRB2IOLVXC3SFXFMTUTTUBWZUIDIHC X-Message-ID-Hash: 2RGRB2IOLVXC3SFXFMTUTTUBWZUIDIHC X-MailFrom: ryan.appel@bofa.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BSsh=5D_Re=3A_PQ_signatures_-_where_do_we_want_to_end_up=3F?= List-Id: "The SSH mail list will allow discussions on improving aspects of the Secure Shell (SSH) protocol." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Boundary_(ID_Gt+/sjpNiuJ/LYclG44UFn) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_IYTIK1Z0RzHOJRmxL57gEQ)" --Boundary_(ID_IYTIK1Z0RzHOJRmxL57gEQ) Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" I too would like a pure implementation of ML-DSA. I also would like a pure = implementation of SLH-DSA as the adoption of the algorithm into the protoco= l will make them available for adoption in implementations which will help = drive =93crypto agility=94 where if we find an issue with an algorithm, we = can switch. The fact that RSA and ECC are both based on the DLP has made it= clear that having one mathematical hardness that if broken (once an exploi= t can be had) renders all of them insecure makes me weary of only adding on= e more =93type=94 of scheme for any single component (I.e. only Lattices or= only Code-based cryptography). To be clear because of the combined size of= public-key + signature, I see ML-DSA having more widespread adoption (like= RSA over ECC), but I also think having options is extremely important. Thank you, Ryan Appel, MS, BCS Vice President; Security Architect GIS =96 Cyber Security Technology Architecture Bank of America [Image] Cryptography turns a security problem into a key management problem. TX8-041-02-02, 16001 N DALLAS PKWY, ADDISON, TX, 75001 T 469 201 6609 M 214 250 4830 ryan.appel@bofa.com dg.crypto_security_architecture@bofa.com [signatureImage] ________________________________ From: Salz, Rich Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2026 8:02:16 AM To: Stephen Farrell ; ssh@ietf.org Subject: [Ssh] Re: PQ signatures - where do we want to end up? I also want a pure ML-DSA signature, for the reasons Watson talked about. I believe that entering the warren of composites will get us tied up becaus= e we=92re using the LAMPS composite draft, not using the LAMPS draft, only= supporting some of the algorithms, or supporting too many of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This message, and any attachment(s), is for the intended recipient(s) only,= may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or proprietar= y and subject to important terms and conditions available at http://www.ban= kofamerica.com/electronic-disclaimer. If you are not the intended recipient= , please delete this message. For more information about how Bank of Americ= a protects your privacy, including specific rights that may apply, please v= isit the following pages: https://business.bofa.com/en-us/content/global-pr= ivacy-notices.html (which includes global privacy notices) and https://www.= bankofamerica.com/security-center/privacy-overview/ (which includes US Stat= e specific privacy notices such as the http://www.bankofamerica.com/ccpa-no= tice). --Boundary_(ID_IYTIK1Z0RzHOJRmxL57gEQ) Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
I too would like a pure implementation of ML-DSA. I also would like a pure = implementation of SLH-DSA as the adoption of the algorithm into the protoco= l will make them available for adoption in implementations which will help = drive =93crypto agility=94 where if we find an issue with an algorithm, we can switch. The fact that RSA and E= CC are both based on the DLP has made it clear that having one mathematical= hardness that if broken (once an exp= loit can be had) renders all of them insecure makes me weary of only adding one more =93type=94 of scheme for any single= component (I.e. only Lattices or only Code-based cryptography). To be clea= r because of the combined size of public-key + signature, I see ML-DSA = having more widespread adoption (like RSA over ECC), but I also think having options is extremely important. 

Thank you,

 

Ryan Appel, MS, BCS

Vice President; Security Architect

GIS =96 Cyber Security Technology Architecture

Bank of America

= 3D"Image"

Cryptography turns a security problem into a key managemen= t problem.

 

TX8-041-02-02, 16001 N DALLAS PKWY, A= DDISON, TX, 75001
T 469 201 6609  &nbs= p;        M 214 250 4830
ryan.appel@bofa.com

dg.crypto_security_ar= chitecture@bofa.com
3D"signatureI=
From: Salz, Rich <rsalz= =3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2026 8:02:16 AM
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; ssh@ietf.org = <SSH@ietf.org>
Subject: [Ssh] Re: PQ signatures - where do we want to end up?
 
I also want a pure ML-DSA signature, for the reasons Watson talked about.

I believe that entering the warren of composites will get us tied up becaus= e we=92re using the  LAMPS composite draft, not using the LAMPS draft,= only supporting some of the algorithms, or supporting too many of them.

This message, and any attachment(s), is for the intended recipient(s) o= nly, may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or propri= etary and subject to important terms and conditions available at http://www= .bankofamerica.com/electronic-disclaimer. If you are not the intended recip= ient, please delete this message. For more information about how Bank of Am= erica protects your privacy, including specific rights that may apply, plea= se visit the following pages: https://business.bofa.com/en-us/content/globa= l-privacy-notices.html (which includes global privacy notices) and https://= www.bankofamerica.com/security-center/privacy-overview/ (which includes US = State specific privacy notices such as the http://www.bankofamerica.com/ccp= a-notice).
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