Re: [ssm] Re: your mail

"Marshall Eubanks" <tme@multicasttech.com> Thu, 17 July 2003 15:37 UTC

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From: "Marshall Eubanks" <tme@multicasttech.com>
Subject: Re: [ssm] Re: your mail
To: hoerdt@clarinet.u-strasbg.fr, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
Cc: Dino Farinacci <dino@procket.com>, mboned@network-services.uoregon.edu, ssm@ietf.org
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:36:04 -0400
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On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:06:18 +0200 (CEST)
 hoerdt@clarinet.u-strasbg.fr wrote:
> Well, it sounds like there is a long road before the SSM internet really
> happend. But I dont really agree with all these points because they
> mix different prob. together.
> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 07:07:39AM -0700, Dino Farinacci wrote:
> > > >> So, What is missing from IPv4 SSM today apart from a deployment effort
> > > >> today ?
> > >
> > >     Nothing.
> >
> > Ok, let's see if you would consider all of the below to be deployment.
> > I would consider most of this to be development, not deployment. Anyhow,
> > the list isn't short.
> >
> > Technologies:
> >
> > - Source redundancy solutions for SSM channels.
> 
> Not really required for SSM deployment, I see it as an SSM "enhancement".
> As a normal user, I do not need to have redundant node at home.
> 
> >
> > - Check wether all transport/session and higher level IETF specifications
> >   that carry group addresses can also carry source addresses (eg:
> >   SDP source filter extensions). Finalization of RTCP for SSM solutions.
> 
> This is an application problem, is really the network waiting for
> application/session protocols to SSM aware ? If MMUSIC is waiting for
> the network to be SSM too , we are in big trouble (see Chicken && egg)
> 
> 
> >
> > Standards:
> >
> > - A good understanding how to do SSM within other than the global
> >   scope (eg: something like an informational recommendation on how
> >   to do SSM within 239/8)
> 
> I want SSM, and I want it all over the Internet. In my mind, scoping
> is another SSM "enhancement".
> 
> 
> >
> > - A nice application side solution (standard, + freely available
> implementation)
> >   to emulate ASM on top of SSM. The final goal for that would be something
> like:
> >   put that emulation into OS kernels so that ASM applications do not need
> >   to be modified.
> 
> I agree.  But will the typical application/middleware writer wait or not
> for the SSM to be deployed before writing this emulation part ? Again,
> this is needed, but right now, this is not needed for SSM deployment in
> the network.
> 
> >
> > - Finalization of all open drafts into RFCs so that anybody working
> >   on actual standards basedd application solutions can start to use SSM.
> >   Hint: Standards based application solutions tend to NOT refer to
> >   any technologies unless they are specified in finalized documents,
> >   eg: RFCs (see discussions in DVB or other application organizations -
> >   if that's how it can be called).
> 
> Igmpv3 is implemented in the most used operating system in the world.

I am sorry, but this is simply not true. IGMPv3 is implemented in the most
recent _version_ of the most used operating system. This _version_ has
a deployment in the few per cent range. It will be years before the availability
of IGMPv3 support in the OS (much less applications) can be assumed.

Please do not throw away what has been acheived :

IGMPv2 support is really ubiquitous in the OS.
IGMPv2 support is really ubiquitous in applications.
PIM support is pretty ubiquitous in routers.
There is a substantial body of deployment experience in the Internet and
with ISP's.
There are a substantial number of enterprise uses of multicast.

This level of support has taken a decade to acheive. To get SSM to the same
level IMHO will take another decade.

Multicast deployment at present is maybe 100x's as extensive as IPv6. To say
that SSM should replace ASM sends the wrong message. To say that SSM will
complement ASM and simplify xSM deployment is a much better message. 

 
Regards
Marshall Eubanks

> SSM is implemented in the most used IP routers in the world. Again, If
> applications writers are waiting for the network to be SSM and the network
> is waiting for the applications, we can wait a long long time before
> something happens.
> 
> 
> >
> > Development:
> >
> > - Lots of key implementations:
> >   - IGMPv3 support in switches, both basic and full IGMPv3 snooping
> >     (basic is a term i use for per-MAC address filtering, whereas
> >      full IGMPv3 snooping does per (S,G) IP address filtering).
> 
> Right. But is igmpv3 snooping a major deployment obstacle for SSM ? if
> it is really the case, it's and "Multicast Last Mile" Prob. and do not
> prevent the backbone to be "SSM".
> 
> 
> >   - IGMPv3 host stacks: MacOS, Set Top Boxes, Solaris
> 
> I really do not agree again. Are we all waiting  for the magic point of
> deployment and say : "Is everybody ready ? OK tomorrow we will switch the
> Internet and it will be SSM" I think that we need a deployment plan
> exactly as in IPv6, not only concerning the Last mile but concerning
> Internet.
> 
> >   - Any commercial applications beside WIndows Media and IP/TV
> >     (what other commercial applications support SSM ?) No EPG software
> >     in STBs supports SSM,
> 
> Same as above, it's an application pb. not an network pb.
> 
> >   - Implementations of IGMPv3 router side in router vendors
> >     other than C,J,P - does N support it ? How about E and F ? ...
> >
> > Deployment wise (as i define deployment):
> >   - Waiting for more than 40% of users to migrate to OSs supporting
> >     IGMPV3/SSM.
> >   - Persuading enterprise networks to consistently upgrade edge routers
> >     to enable IGMPv3.
> 
> The network do not have to wait for user to put new service into it. The
> pb is that these 40% of users do not know what multicast over IP is.
> Entreprise networks are generally on the edge of Internet.
> 
> >
> > And this all does not cover transition solutions that may be necessary
> > to move forwards faster than being blocked on any of these problems.
> 
> OK. So, Is the Internet core backbone SSM enabled ?
> 
> Hoerdt Mickaƫl
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > Cheers
> > 	Toerless
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> ssm@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ssm


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