Re: [stir] current draft charter
"Richard Shockey" <richard@shockey.us> Thu, 13 June 2013 17:12 UTC
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From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: 'Dan York' <york@isoc.org>, 'Hadriel Kaplan' <hadriel.kaplan@oracle.com>
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Cc: stir@ietf.org, 'Dave Crocker' <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
Subject: Re: [stir] current draft charter
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<sigh> Since it seems folks want some authoritative history of 6116 I suppose I should oblige. I only co-chaired the ENUM WG for nearly 8 years. Brother Pfautz can also relate the issues. There were multiple reasons e164.arpa failed though 6116 technology has worked very well imbedded in carrier networks as a TCAP replacement where the CSCF or SIP proxy needs to perform some form of number translation for some data or metadata, typically for the call routing function. On a localized, distributed and fully cached basis ENUM essentially becomes a Central Routing Server. One of the big holes in IMS BTW. Essentially an IP Service Control Point in old TDM/SS7 terms. ENUM did not fail .. e164.arpa failed. Like lots of IETF protocols they sometimes get use for things not originally intended. MIME immediately comes to mind. If I recall ENUM still baked into the IMS architecture. SIP Redirect also works well for number translation functions and modern database technology has made the difference in query response time negligible. It's now only a question of network preference on which protocol to use. There is a lot of real 6116 technology out there. Hadriel is right and Brian is simply wrong 6116 IS everywhere and it's baked into every SIP Session Border Controller sold on the Planet. There is no question you could develop some HTTPS like methodology that would equally well for number translations but as a practical matter it's simply a matter of taste. Provisioning is the larger problem and DRINKS is still at it after 4 years. Dan and Brian correctly points out one of the issues with a public tree was privacy. The idea that since the tree was public on the global Internet an enterprising Voice Spammer could scrape the tree to identify all active E.164 numbers. Brian's issue #6 is a not true since any US carrier for instance can actually see the underlying carrier number for any NANP number in the system. For other jurisdictions carrier identification in the underlying numbering databases is different. Obviously the #1 problem e164.arpa was the delegation model which required endless fights with the ITU which no one, I assume wants to repeat. Second the DNS is what it is, so you were left with no methodology for Authentication or Authorization of the query itself. In private instantiations this was solved by requiring VPN access even down to a limited set of IP addresses. It works if the application using 6116 was limited enough. IN the US this was done for the MMS mobile picture routing application and the FCC's own I-TRS database for the hearing impaired. Third ... one answer. In SIP call routing this posed a problem generally referred to Determinate Response. The target URI for the terminating Carrier SBC might be different based on who was asking the question and ultimately where. Obviously we got nowhere with Kaplan source URI though I understand it has been implemented in private ENUM instantiations. Private firms like Akamai munge DNS all the time in CDN networks to optimize the source of content to the location of the query. Fourth was the obvious political problem of having carriers agree to allow user control of routing data and that was a nonstarter. However if the tree was actually in control of the service providers ... gee GSMA Pathfinder.. well then that was NOOOOOO problem. But Pathfinder had its own set of issues. There were at least 2 other well-funded ENUM initiatives driven by carriers in the US alone, but in my judgment they have not deployed since the market conditions and requirements were not ready. In addition there are at least a dozen private ENUM services in existence. "Money is the answer what is the question?" Shockey's Law. http://www.gsma.com/technicalprojects/pathfinder That said the proposed requirements here are actually different and the market conditions have demonstrably changed so certainly 6116 technology COULD work but you would have to revisit a lot of issues like the E2MD problem etc Source URI and the provisioning issues. The interest of the carriers and the regulators are in actual alignment here. 6116 is a reasonable option that should be left on the table for consideration as the STIR process moves forward and the full requirements are actually understood. One of those is the structure for E.164 numbers controlled by Public Safety and Government authorities themselves. -----Original Message----- From: stir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dan York Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:52 AM To: Hadriel Kaplan Cc: stir@ietf.org; Stephen Farrell; Dave Crocker; Peterson, Jon; Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel, On 6/12/13 5:38 PM, "Hadriel Kaplan" <hadriel.kaplan@oracle.com> wrote: >That begs the question of what issues you think made Public ENUM fail, >and why we won't hit the same issues in whatever model we choose. Since you addressed this question to me, I feel compelled to answer... but in the meantime both Brian and Jon have given much more detailed answers with which I mostly agree. I saw security/privacy issues as the main issues that made Public ENUM not work, i.e. Brian's points 4, 5 and 6: > 4. Any public database that was able to show any information about a >telephone number was considered a privacy issue, requiring a lot of >"sign off", which never happened. > 5. Everyone objected to being able to determine what numbers were "live" > 6. Carriers objected to a public database that told competitors what >numbers they controlled The potential for spam was also high. Five or six years ago there was at least one tool circulating around that would walk an ENUM tree, generate a list of all potential phone numbers and then send SIP INVITEs to all of those numbers. I remember either seeing a video or reading about how someone did this with all the public ENUM numbers published for Germany (at that time). So using Public ENUM could be a fantastic way to potentially get yourself on the calling lists for telemarketers. Ideally, I think a public service *would* be a useful way to enable ubiquitous usage. I'm just not sure how to get there without also opening a solution up to these same kind of security/privacy issues. Dan -- Dan York Senior Content Strategist, Internet Society york@isoc.org <mailto:york@isoc.org> +1-802-735-1624 Jabber: york@jabber.isoc.org <mailto:york@jabber.isoc.org> Skype: danyork http://twitter.com/danyork http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/ _______________________________________________ stir mailing list stir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
- [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Stephen Farrell
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter philippe.fouquart
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Wilhelm Wimmreuter
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Stephen Farrell
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dan York
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Brian Rosen
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dan York
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Wendt, Chris
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Brian Rosen
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Wendt, Chris
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Brian Rosen
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Brian Rosen
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- [stir] Nature vs. nurture -- semantics vs. encodi… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dan York
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- [stir] Not just "called party" - Re: current draf… Dan York
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] Not just "called party" - Re: current … Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter DOLLY, MARTIN C
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] Not just "called party" - Re: current … Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] Not just "called party" - Re: current … Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dan York
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [stir] Not just "called party" - Re: current … Dan York
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] Not just "called party" - Re: current … Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter philippe.fouquart
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Richard Barnes
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter philippe.fouquart
- Re: [stir] current draft charter philippe.fouquart
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Brian Rosen
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Wendt, Chris
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Richard Shockey
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Lee, Yiu
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Michael Hammer
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Dave Crocker
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Lee, Yiu
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Lee, Yiu
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Wendt, Chris
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [stir] current draft charter - ENUM and datab… Lee, Yiu
- Re: [stir] current draft charter Wilhelm Wimmreuter