Re: [stir] [sipcore] Adding categories from sipcore-callinfo-spam to draft-ietf-sipcore-callinfo-rcd-04

["Gorman, Pierce" <[e-mail]>]

Thank you for the response Samir.  That helps me to understand.  I think I understand at a very high level what you are advocating.  I won't argue the efficacy of the approach but of course it may be difficult to get agreement.  I don't have any other comments or flames at this time.  Thank you again.

Best regards,


Pierce Gorman

From: Samir Srivastava <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 4:36 PM
To: Gorman, Pierce <[e-mail]>; Henning Schulzrinne <[e-mail]>; Holmes, David <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail]; SIPCORE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [sipcore] [stir] Adding categories from sipcore-callinfo-spam to draft-ietf-sipcore-callinfo-rcd-04

[External]

Hi Pierce,
Thanx for spending time in reviewing.
Robocall-Strike-Force-Final-Report mentions that robocall blocking needs to be constantly evolving and adapting i.e. We will be always in N+1 cycle.Whatever we develop today, robo-callers (spammers) will find another way for them.
We can avoid  N+1 cycle, if we hit the problem at the motivation level.
In Complete Cashless Economy (CCE) i.e. When dollar is digital, we will have end-to-end traceability of earning and spending of the parties, as they are only dealt in computing devices. There is no hard currency equivalent. We cannot trace hard currency. Spammers make the calls as they earn money from this.  This is the motivation for them. Spammers cannot lie about the volume of the calls generated by them. We need co-relation of earnings and call volume (of spammers) which is achievable in CCE.
Here we are hitting the problem at the motivation level.
In CCE, we will be having the system for catching other malpractices (such as tracing funding of terrorism, bribery etc). For catching our issue, we need additional co-relation system with call volume.
Complete Multimedia Recording (CMR) is one step further. We will be always in multimedia recordings. Recordings will be viewed by law enforcement when there is proper court subpoena etc. In all unfair/illegal actions, first privacy is misused then witnesses and evidences are looked. Influential persons (backed by army of lawyers to find the holes in the laws) with manipulation of evidence and witnesses goes scott free. There are possible unfair scenarios in CCE also, such as misuse of technology, law, identity, leakage using word of mouth etc. Due to misuse of these, loss of victim becomes gain of gang of cheaters in CCE. CMR catches these also.
We have been fixing the systems for impurity in humans. With CCE and CMR, we are avoiding impurity in humans. When people will know that they cannot misuse privacy, then they will not commit unfair/illegal action itself.
Please refer http://samirsrivastava.typepad.com<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsamirsrivastava.typepad.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cpierce.gorman%40t-mobile.com%7C40e9fd31f0b54e5cf1f808da09f06bae%7Cbe0f980bdd994b19bd7bbc71a09b026c%7C0%7C0%7C637833226045055524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iZMP4TgJiM1GLXHSGdhOJIjkBjnumREF7Juw7MjStU4%3D&reserved=0>  . It has slides and papers on CCE and CMR . IT LISTS THE REASON FOR PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR THESE CHANGES ALSO.
CBDC is getting adopted by governments. If CMR gets the okay (peer-reviewed) from IETF'ers, then it will be easy to convince the governments for CMR.
Your comments / flames are welcome.
Thanks
Samir

On 3/17/2022 at 8:10 PM, "Pierce Gorman" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Samir,

Can you help us out a little?  I'm not following the connection you're trying to make between central bank cryptocurrencies and combatting illegal robocalling using SIP Identity headers.

Pierce


From: Samir Srivastava <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 8:39 AM
To: Henning Schulzrinne <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Holmes, David <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; SIPCORE <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [stir] [sipcore] Adding categories from sipcore-callinfo-spam to draft-ietf-sipcore-callinfo-rcd-04

Hi,

  Please analyze the SPAM in Complete Cashless Economy and Complete Multimedia Recording environment. When there is end-to-end traceability, we can know the source of income of Spammers. Spammers can not lie about the volume. This co-relation can force the penalties for spammers and spam call volume will be reduced drastically.

  Apart from SPAM, these fixes other malpractices also.

  Refer the work at https://samirsrivastava.typepad.com<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsamirsrivastava.typepad.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cpierce.gorman%40t-mobile.com%7C40e9fd31f0b54e5cf1f808da09f06bae%7Cbe0f980bdd994b19bd7bbc71a09b026c%7C0%7C0%7C637833226045055524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=l4%2Ftprts49yQnYQQw23dinYsD%2Bjkbwe%2BcO3AgALkWWU%3D&reserved=0> .

Thanks
Samir

On 3/13/2022 at 2:15 AM, "Henning Schulzrinne" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
The basic idea originated in the FCC robocall strike force a few years ago, with lots of carrier participation, so you could go back to the various FCC reports that were produced at the time for the motivation and background (e.g., https://transition.fcc.gov/cgb/Robocall-Strike-Force-Final-Report.pdf<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftransition.fcc.gov%2Fcgb%2FRobocall-Strike-Force-Final-Report.pdf&data=04%7C01%7Cpierce.gorman%40t-mobile.com%7C40e9fd31f0b54e5cf1f808da09f06bae%7Cbe0f980bdd994b19bd7bbc71a09b026c%7C0%7C0%7C637833226045055524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=f1LFY4maV%2Fq%2B2sAvn1haEdq4y5tBDMLXXqdtdqaQqoo%3D&reserved=0> and https://www.fcc.gov/file/12311/download<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fcc.gov%2Ffile%2F12311%2Fdownload&data=04%7C01%7Cpierce.gorman%40t-mobile.com%7C40e9fd31f0b54e5cf1f808da09f06bae%7Cbe0f980bdd994b19bd7bbc71a09b026c%7C0%7C0%7C637833226045055524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=0pFUYajpF5DUVm9fxaJsXG57IXOsea%2Fjtxl3LEAvPBc%3D&reserved=0>). This I-D and requirements have been discussed since 2017, so this is hardly a new idea. The draft itself has been through IESG review - I just never got around to implement the changes requested.

The basic requirement is that we want the receiving callee to make automated or semi-automated judgements. Currently, the RCD draft has a free-form field, but that doesn't really help for anything automated (or, say, displaying icons or other graphical elements).

Like all spam labeling, this is probabilistic, i.e.,  if you're waiting for perfection, this isn't for you. Current robocall filtering services already label numbers with categories (they are in the same ballpark, but not exactly the same and each seems to differ a bit). There are at least two possible sources:

* For some labels, the calling party (with signing) will insert the information, presumably for the more "positive" labels like "health" or "government" or "personal". If a carrier lies, this becomes either a reputational issue ("never trust labels from carrier X") or enforcement matter (e.g., as a potential deficiency in robocall mitigation). The label may be part of the KYC process when a carrier signs up a customer - after all, in almost all cases this is pretty obvious ("your business says Joe's Travel Agency. You are picking the healthcare designation how?") A terminating carrier may, for example, decide to only trust known carriers (say, T-Mobile) in deciding whether to convey this information to the called party.

* An intermediary service used by the terminating carrier labels (signed) numbers based on honeypots, crowdsourcing or number databases, probably more focused on negative labels like "telemarketing" or "fraud". Again, versions of this exist today.

Henning

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 3:10 PM Holmes, David <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Henning,

Interesting idea, but who could define the categories, and who would verify the claims?

There may be something here, but this is a good example of where we should agree the use cases and then define requirements before leaping to solutions.

BR/David Holmes/T-Mobile USA

Get Outlook for Android<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36&data=04%7C01%7Cpierce.gorman%40t-mobile.com%7C40e9fd31f0b54e5cf1f808da09f06bae%7Cbe0f980bdd994b19bd7bbc71a09b026c%7C0%7C0%7C637833226045055524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FiJdvxM7E%2FcYMfGgnmvPLnF2Y2GRkBrZG7rR6te%2FYJ8%3D&reserved=0>
________________________________
From: stir <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Henning Schulzrinne <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2022 9:24:47 AM
To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; SIPCORE <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: [stir] Adding categories from sipcore-callinfo-spam to draft-ietf-sipcore-callinfo-rcd-04

[External]

In trying to get back to looking at my ancient, dusty draft, a thought: I think RCD would be significantly more useful if it contained standardized categories of callers, such as the one included in callinfo-spam. This allows much better user interfaces and automated handling ("send all political calls to voicemail", "play special ringtone for personal calls").

Henning