Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ?
"David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net> Wed, 07 July 2010 00:32 UTC
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From: David Harrington <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
To: 'Mallikarjun Chadalapaka' <cbm@chadalapaka.com>, "'Mark S. Edwards'" <marke@muttsnuts.com>, storm@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ?
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Ah. That, and the answer from Mark, answer my question very well. thanks, dbh > -----Original Message----- > From: Mallikarjun Chadalapaka [mailto:cbm@chadalapaka.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:59 PM > To: 'David Harrington'; 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > Hi David, > > iSCSI protocol has a built-in discovery protocol called > "SendTargets" - based on text key exchanges. All iSCSI > targets MUST support the Discovery sessions to transact the > SendTargets protocol on, as well as the SendTargets operation > itself. So we have a required interoperability baseline for > discovery. The debate on the list has been around what > mechanisms if any SHOULD be additionally required - and iSNS > fits the "SHOULD" bill. So I believe we're covered overall. > > Thanks. > > Mallikarjun > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:49 PM > > To: 'Mallikarjun Chadalapaka'; 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > > > Hi, > > > > yes. you now understand what I was looking for, and the new text is > > much better. > > > > I expect we will be asked why iSNS is not MUST implement, > to ensure a > > minimum level of interoperability, since that seems to have > achieved > > implementer rough consensus. I support having one mchanism as > > MUST-implement to make interoperability more likely. Then, > if desired, > > implementers can support additional mechanisms. > > > > Other than a desire to not hurt the feelings of a few die-hard > > supporters of other mechanisms, why is iSNS not a MUST > implement, to > > ensure a minimum level of interoperability, since that > seems to have > > achieved implementer rough consensus. I support having one > mechanism > > as MUST-implement to ensure interoperability. Then, if desired, > > implementers can support additional mechanisms. > > > > dbh > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mallikarjun Chadalapaka [mailto:cbm@chadalapaka.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:25 PM > > > To: 'David Harrington'; 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > > > > > Hi David, > > > > > > Thanks for the detailed note, I now understand your perspective. > > > > > > Here is the text that I have crafted based on all the > inputs so far. > > > Does that look reasonable? > > > > > > iSCSI equipment that needs discovery functions beyond SendTargets > > > SHOULD implement iSNS (see [RFC4171]) for extended discovery > > > management capabilities and interoperability. Although [RFC3721] > > > implies an SLP implementation requirement, SLP has not > been widely > > > implemented or deployed for use with iSCSI in practice. > > > iSCSI implementations therefore SHOULD NOT rely on SLP-based > > > discovery interoperability. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Mallikarjun > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: David Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 12:06 PM > > > > To: 'Mallikarjun Chadalapaka'; 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I made a suggested change as a contributor because I didn't want > > to > > > > come down with the force of an AD Evaluation. That will come > > later. > > > > But there are some things I know will not make it through IESG > > > > Evaluation, and the IESG is actually working to document > > > some of the > > > > things for which we commonly reject a document. The use of > > > non-RFC2119 > > > > language to specify compliance is a common cause for DISCUSSes. > > > > > > > > The storm WG is something of a cross-SDO effort, and that > > > might lead > > > > to some lack of understanding of IETF process, and IESG common > > > > complaints. Let me be sure you understand my objection. > > > > > > > > The IETF does not support "not almost must" compliance language. > > > > We want our standards to be clear and unambiguous. > > > > Therefore, we have RFC2119 compliance keywords, such as > > > SHOULD NOT and > > > > NOT RECOMMENDED. > > > > What you are proposing sounds to me like a SHOULD NOT, or a NOT > > > > RECOMMENDED: > > > > > > > > 4. SHOULD NOT This phrase, or the phrase "NOT > > > RECOMMENDED" mean that > > > > there may exist valid reasons in particular > > > circumstances when the > > > > particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, > but the full > > > > implications should be understood and the case carefully > > weighed > > > > before implementing any behavior described with this label. > > > > > > > > The full implications appear to be that nobody seems to > > > implement SLP, > > > > and therefore the SLP part of your implementation will not > > > > interoperate with many other existing implementations. > Therefore, > > > > implementing SLP appears to be NOT RECOMMENDED. I am not > > > telling you > > > > that you must say it is NOT RECOMMENDED; I am telling > you that you > > > > > > should clarify the compliance requirement that represents > > > WG consensus > > > > using RFC2119 language, so the requirement is clear and > > unambiguous. > > > > > > > > As Responsible AD for the storm WG, I need to champion your > > > documents > > > > during IESG Evaluation. If you submit a document to me that > > > says, "for > > > > compliance, SLP is no longer almost must", then I will almost > > > > certainly tell you to revise it before I will champion the > > document > > > > for you. The WG advice SHOULD be written using RFC2119 > language, > > > > because if you don't and I send the document for IESG > > > Evaluation, we > > > > will all waste lots of time debating with the other IESG > > > members when > > > > they raise DISCUSSes questioning why we are not using > > > RFC2119 keywords > > > > to describe the compliance rules. > > > > > > > > Does that explain my objection to non-RFC2119 language better? > > > > This will also apply to other WG documents, especially those on > > the > > > > standards track. > > > > > > > > dbh > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Mallikarjun Chadalapaka [mailto:cbm@chadalapaka.com] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 12:27 PM > > > > > To: 'David Harrington'; 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: RE: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > > > > > > > > > Hi David and all, > > > > > > > > > > With deployment experience, we now know that the original > > "almost > > > > > must" > > > > > recommendation is not valid (ignoring the fact that it > > > was contained > > > > > in an Informational RFC). > > > > > > > > > > But OTOH, we do not have to say "SHOULD NOT" implement > > > SLP either, > > > > > which IMHO is overly constraining and thus unwarranted. > > > > > > > > > > At this point, I plan to make it clear in the > consolidated draft > > > > > > > that SLP is not an "almost must" requirement, along > the lines of > > > > > > > what DavidB/Mark had proposed. > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know if that is not agreeable to anyone. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > Mallikarjun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org > > > > > [mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > > > > > Of David Harrington > > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:03 AM > > > > > > To: 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think "recommendation is no longer valid" is > > > equivalent to "NOT > > > > > > RECOMMENDED" which is equivalent to "SHOULD NOT". > > > > > > > > > > > > So I recommend "SHOULD NOT" (or if you prefer, > > > rewording to "NOT > > > > > > RECOMMENDED"). > > > > > > > > > > > > dbh (as contributor) > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org > > > [mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of Mark S. Edwards > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 6:23 PM > > > > > > > To: storm@ietf.org > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks ok to me. I was trying to be diplomatic in > case there > > > > were > > > > > > > any SLP diehards out there waiting to be offended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But since none have appeared over the parapet the hammer > > > > approach > > > > > > > that effectively deprecates SLP as an > > > interoperability mechanism > > > > > > > > > > > suits me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that we should not specifically prohibit it's > > > > > use, after all > > > > > > > people are free to create and use any discovery mechanism > > > > > they wish > > > > > > > for their own purposes. Could be SLP, could be LDAP > > > or "Fred's > > > > > > > Bird-Brained Resource Locator", none should be explicitly > > > > barred. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 21:25 23/06/2010, david.black@emc.com wrote: > > > > > > > >Mark, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if pushed I'd write something like: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "iSCSI equipment that need discovery functions beyond > > > > > > SendTargets > > > > > > > > > should implement iSNS for extended discovery > management > > > > > > > capabilities > > > > > > > > > and maximum interoperability." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since any unit that implements SLP or even LDAP as a > > > > > discovery > > > > > > > > > mechanism is not going to interoperate with > the majority > > > > > > > of systems, > > > > > > > > > I'd hesitate to even mention them. However, if > > > anyone feels > > > > > > > > > > > > > strongly that SLP deserves some mention, then by all > > means > > > > do > > > > > > so, > > > > > > > > > just please don't assert it too strongly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One final point. Given that iSNS has won the > consensus > > > > > > > argument, is > > > > > > > > > there a case for turning the "should' in the > > > above sentence > > > > to > > > > > > > >"SHOULD" ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yes, I would use "SHOULD" plus I would add text to say: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SLP has not been widely implemented or deployed > > for > > > > use > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > iSCSI, therefore RFC 3121's recommendation > > > that SLP be > > > > > > > > implemented is no longer valid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This is one of those situations in which subtlety > > > does not win > > > > > > style > > > > > > > >points (IMHO) but I don't think we need a recommendation > > > > > that SLP > > > > > > > >"SHOULD NOT" be implemented. In addition (as noted > > > below), RFC > > > > > > 3721 > > > > > > > >would need to be added to the list of RFCs that are > > > > > updated by the > > > > > > > >combined iSCSI Internet-Draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any objections? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > > > >--David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org > > > > > [mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > > > > > > > Behalf > > > > > > > >Of Mark S. Edwards > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 7:00 AM > > > > > > > > > To: storm@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the delay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you say, RFC3721 was more about guidance and was > > > > > > > written before > > > > > > > > > there was any deployment experience. At > least the text > > > > > > > says 'should' > > > > > > > > > rather than 'SHOULD'. It might be nicer to all > > > round if it > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > just be removed and no extended discovery mechanism be > > > > > > mentioned, > > > > > > > > > but we have realities to consider such as an > iSCSI array > > > > > > > won't get > > > > > > > > > Microsoft certification unless it supports at least > > > > > basic iSNS - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > running code and consensus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one good thing we have now is that iSNS is > > > indeed now an > > > > > > IETF > > > > > > > > > protocol (RFC 4171) and the original argument for SLP > > was > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > was an existing RFC. So the argument for using SLP > > ahead > > > > > > > of iSNS is > > > > > > > > > no longer relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if pushed I'd write something like: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "iSCSI equipment that need discovery functions beyond > > > > > > SendTargets > > > > > > > > > should implement iSNS for extended discovery > management > > > > > > > capabilities > > > > > > > > > and maximum interoperability." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since any unit that implements SLP or even LDAP as a > > > > > discovery > > > > > > > > > mechanism is not going to interoperate with > the majority > > > > > > > of systems, > > > > > > > > > I'd hesitate to even mention them. However, if > > > anyone feels > > > > > > > > > > > > > strongly that SLP deserves some mention, then by all > > means > > > > do > > > > > > so, > > > > > > > > > just please don't assert it too strongly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One final point. Given that iSNS has won the > consensus > > > > > > > argument, is > > > > > > > > > there a case for turning the "should' in the > > > above sentence > > > > to > > > > > > > >"SHOULD" ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 23:54 21/05/2010, Black_David@emc.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding the feature removal discussion, can > > > I add SLP > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >list ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The RFC 3721 states > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "iSCSI equipment that > > > > > > > > > > > need discovery functions beyond SendTargets > > > > > > > should at least > > > > > > > > > > > implement SLP, and then consider iSNS when > > > > extended > > > > > > > >discovery > > > > > > > > > > > management capabilities are > required such as > > in > > > > > > larger > > > > > > > >storage > > > > > > > > > > > networks. It should be noted that > since iSNS > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > support > > > > > > > >SLP, > > > > > > > > > > > iSNS can be used to help manage > the discovery > > > > > > > information > > > > > > > >returned > > > > > > > > > > > by SLP." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The implication is that targets and initiators > > should > > > > > > > expect to > > > > > > > >find > > > > > > > > > > > support for SLP before considering iSNS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I remember our first iSCSI appliance and we spent > > > > > > > ages trying to > > > > > > > >get > > > > > > > > > > > SLP working because it the above wording > > > > > effectively made it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mandatory. SLP turned out to be a complete > > > bust and was > > > > > > > >effectively > > > > > > > > > > > killed off when Microsoft refused to support > > > it in their > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > initiator and in their target logo tests. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The result is that today I doubt you could find a > > > > > target or > > > > > > > >initiator > > > > > > > > > > > out there supporting SLP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For anybody that does still implement SLP we could > > > > change > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >wording > > > > > > > > > > > for SLP a little to remove the implied > hierarchy, or > > > > > > > just admit > > > > > > > >that > > > > > > > > > > > running code has created IETF consensus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This is interesting. RFC 3720 (main iSCSI spec) > > > > > never mentions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >SLP. RFC 3721 is not a Standards Track RFC, but > > > > > that's not a > > > > > > > > > >reason not to update it (if people will excuse the > > > > > > > double negative). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >So, Mark, could you send an email to the list with > > > > > > > proposed text on > > > > > > > > > >SLP that you'd like to see in the new consolidated > > iSCSI > > > > > > > draft (no > > > > > > > > > >more than a few sentences, please)? If that text (as > > > > > > > revised) is > > > > > > > > > >acceptable to the WG, the result would go > into the new > > > > > > > consolidated > > > > > > > > > >iSCSI draft, and RFC 3721 would be added to > the list of > > > > > > > RFCs that > > > > > > > > > >are being updated by that draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > > > > > >--David > > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > >David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer EMC > Corporation, > > > > > > > 176 South > > > > > > > > > >St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 > > > > > > > > > >+1 (508) 293-7953 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786 > > > > > > > > > >black_david@emc.com Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 > > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > storm mailing list > > > > > > > > > storm@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > storm mailing list > > > > > > > storm@ietf.org > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > storm mailing list > > > > > > storm@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm > > > > > > > > > > > > >
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Asgeir Eiriksson
- [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim Black_David
- Re: [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim Knight, Frederick
- [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Paul Koning
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Paul Koning
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Stephen Bailey
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Asgeir Eiriksson
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? William Stouder-Studenmund
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Julian Satran
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Asgeir Eiriksson
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Pat Thaler
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mark Bakke (mbakke)
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Black_David
- [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Black_David
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? david.black
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington