Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
Asgeir Eiriksson <asgeir_eiriksson@hotmail.com> Tue, 30 March 2010 17:11 UTC
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From: Asgeir Eiriksson <asgeir_eiriksson@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
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Mallikarjun, I was referring to the MPA-version of markers only, and the Chelsio iSCSI HBA do not support iSCSI markers. Regards, 'Asgeir > From: cbm@chadalapaka.com > To: marke@muttsnuts.com; storm@ietf.org > Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:42:07 -0700 > Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? > > I believe out of order placement continues to be critical for efficient > RNIC/DDP implementations, and markers play a role there. > > Having said that, IMHO, that is not exactly the question we should tackle on > this thread. > > We should focus on these two iSCSI-centric questions: > > 1) Are there implementations out there that implement iSCSI Markers *as > defined by RFC 3720*? (Asgeir may have answered this question as "yes", but > he referenced an RNIC so I am not sure if he's referring to the MPA-version > of markers or iSCSI key-driven markers) > > 2) If "yes" to #1, if we drop iSCSI Markers in the new Consolidated draft, > would that cause problems to any "applications" - i.e. iSCSI and SCSI stacks > in either commercial O/S or proprietary embedded implementations? > > > If the answer to the second question is "No", we can go ahead and drop it > from the iSCSI Consolidated draft, independent of MPA/DDP/RDMAP. > > Thanks. > > Mallikarjun > > > > > > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Mark S. Edwards > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:22 AM > To: storm@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? > > Asgeir, > > Yes, I do understand and remember all the arguments. Indeed, I remember one > of Randy's theoretical presentations positing that a marker aware 10GB > offload NIC might only require as little as 2K onboard buffering RAM. > > The point is, that at least for iSCSI the technology that arrived seems to > marginalised the need for anyone to implement markers. Given the fact that > running code creates IETF consensus we have an opportunity at this time to > remove unnecessary complications, markers are a candidate for being made > optional or even being removed completely. > > Personally I would be happy to see them removed. My original note on this > topic was to try to be a good citizen by asking anyone who might be > affected, or know someone who would be affected, to speak up. > > Mark. > > > At 16:28 30/03/2010, Asgeir Eiriksson wrote: > > Paul, Mark > > The main selling point for markers is that they enable out or order > placement > (on receive) while preserving in order completions and markers therefore > have the > potential of decreasing buffering requirements in RNIC and to a less extent > in > iSCSI HBA. > > 'Asgeir > > ________________________________________ > Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 15:49:11 +0100 > To: storm@ietf.org > From: marke@muttsnuts.com > Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? > > Paul, > > That's pretty much my recollection, too. > > One of those things that was thought to be a reasonable solution to a > foreseeable change in the technology. In the end, the technology found a > different solution. > > They were fascinating presentations, though. > > Mark. > > At 15:22 30/03/2010, Paul Koning wrote: > Thanks Asgeir. > > As I recall, the original idea behind markers is to make it possible to > build 10G HBAs that can run at wire speed, which was believed to be > impossible otherwise. > > The subsequent record indicates that this was in fact not the case; 10G HBAs > are feasible and have been built without resorting to markers. There is no > other reason for using markers. So if the one reason that they were thought > to be needed in fact turned out not to be real, the obvious thing to do is > to remove the unused complications from the spec. > > I suppose one could argue that, placed in an appendix and “optional to > implement” they do no harm. That’s a fair point. If there is still a > chance that they will turn out to be needed in the future we may want to go > that way. I personally would bet against that chance. > > paul > > From: Asgeir Eiriksson [ mailto:asgeir_eiriksson@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:24 AM > To: Paul Koning; cbm@chadalapaka.com; marke@muttsnuts.com; storm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? > > Hello Paul, > > The Chelsio RNIC do support the marker feature, but as far as I know the > feature > has never been used in the field, and it isn't supported by all RNIC > implementations. > > I periodically ask our AE and developers about this feature and so far the > answer > is that no one uses it, and no one is asking for it (4 years of data at this > point). > > Regards, > > Asgeir Eiriksson > CTO > Chelsio Communications Inc. > > > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:01:49 -0400 > > From: Paul_Koning@Dell.com > > To: cbm@chadalapaka.com; marke@muttsnuts.com; storm@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? > > > > I sure would like markers to go away. Rumors of their use are somewhat > > interesting, but substantiated data would be more so. > > > > paul > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org [ mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > > Of Mallikarjun Chadalapaka > > > Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 8:33 PM > > > To: 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org > > > Subject: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? > > > > > > Just to clarify... > > > > > > > On another removal topic, I seem to recall that Mallikarjun also > > said > > > > that he was removing markers. > > > > > > I had only said that it's one of the items I had heard prior requests > > > on > > > (that it be removed). Thanks for initiating the list discussion > > > though! > > > > > > > but I do wonder if this will affect any HBA implementations ? > > > > > > Good question, I don't know. HBA vendors, especially iSCSI/iSER/RNIC > > > "roto-tilled" implementations, please chime in. > > > > > > > > > Mallikarjun > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org [ mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > Behalf Of > > > Mark > > > > S. Edwards > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 6:56 AM > > > > To: storm@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim > > > > > > > > Regarding the feature removal discussion, can I add SLP to the list > > ? > > > > > > > > The RFC 3721 states > > > > > > > > "iSCSI equipment that > > > > need discovery functions beyond SendTargets should at least > > > > implement SLP, and then consider iSNS when extended discovery > > > > management capabilities are required such as in larger > > storage > > > > networks. It should be noted that since iSNS will support > > > SLP, > > > > iSNS can be used to help manage the discovery information > > > returned > > > > by SLP." > > > > > > > > The implication is that targets and initiators should expect to find > > > > support for SLP before considering iSNS. > > > > > > > > I remember our first iSCSI appliance and we spent ages trying to get > > > > SLP working because it the above wording effectively made it > > > > mandatory. SLP turned out to be a complete bust and was effectively > > > > killed off when Microsoft refused to support it in their initiator > > > > and in their target logo tests. > > > > > > > > The result is that today I doubt you could find a target or > > initiator > > > > out there supporting SLP. > > > > > > > > For anybody that does still implement SLP we could change the > > wording > > > > for SLP a little to remove the implied hierarchy, or just admit that > > > > running code has created IETF consensus. > > > > > > > > > > > > On another removal topic, I seem to recall that Mallikarjun also > > said > > > > that he was removing markers. I don't particularly object to this > > > > but I do wonder if this will affect any HBA implementations ? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 06:59 27/03/2010, Black_David@emc.com wrote: > > > > >Draft minutes are attached - please comment, correct, etc. > > > > > > > > > >Also, in the absence of objection on this mailing list, decisions > > > > >recorded in the minutes are considered to be the rough consensus of > > > > >this WG, *except* that two issues were identified as sufficiently > > > > >important to discuss separately on the list (see separate > > messages): > > > > > - Text negotiation key for new iSCSI features (discussion > > > > > in progress) > > > > > - Features to remove from iSCSI (discussion to be started) > > > > > > > > > >Many thanks to Craig Carlson for taking notes during the meeting. > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > >--David > > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > >David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer > > > > >EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 > > > > >+1 (508) 293-7953 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786 > > > > >black_david@emc.com Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 > > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >storm mailing list > > > > >storm@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > storm mailing list > > > > storm@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > storm mailing list > > > storm@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm > > _______________________________________________ > > storm mailing list > > storm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm > ________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your > inbox. Sign up now. > > ________________________________________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > Learn More. > > _______________________________________________ > storm mailing list > storm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850553/direct/01/
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Asgeir Eiriksson
- [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim Black_David
- Re: [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim Knight, Frederick
- [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Paul Koning
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Paul Koning
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Stephen Bailey
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Asgeir Eiriksson
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? William Stouder-Studenmund
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Julian Satran
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Asgeir Eiriksson
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Pat Thaler
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mark Bakke (mbakke)
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers? Black_David
- [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Black_David
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? david.black
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? Mark S. Edwards
- Re: [storm] iSCSI feature removal: SLP ? David Harrington