Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?

Asgeir Eiriksson <asgeir_eiriksson@hotmail.com> Tue, 30 March 2010 17:11 UTC

Return-Path: <asgeir_eiriksson@hotmail.com>
X-Original-To: storm@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: storm@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDD73A6999 for <storm@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.482
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.650, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptmAgOtQ3ldC for <storm@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from snt0-omc3-s18.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s18.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.157]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E529B3A6A75 for <storm@ietf.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:11:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from SNT129-W48 ([65.55.90.137]) by snt0-omc3-s18.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:11:43 -0700
Message-ID: <SNT129-W4867BF2821E626BB9B3AACE61F0@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_aab5beb6-9785-4a19-b54f-08b3f19925bf_"
X-Originating-IP: [85.220.48.235]
From: Asgeir Eiriksson <asgeir_eiriksson@hotmail.com>
To: <cbm@chadalapaka.com>, <marke@muttsnuts.com>, <storm@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:11:41 -0700
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <SNT131-ds195C4D77D99D90330C71A6A01F0@phx.gbl>
References: <C2D311A6F086424F99E385949ECFEBCB02162B4B@CORPUSMX80B.corp.emc.com> <690958.35528.qm@smtp111.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <SNT131-ds389E5D120CA34D81D341FA01F0@phx.gbl> <D8CEBB6AE9D43848BD2220619A43F326539198@M31.equallogic.com> <SNT129-W39116021288D2177842E5DE61F0@phx.gbl> <D8CEBB6AE9D43848BD2220619A43F3265391BE@M31.equallogic.com> <288331.47396.qm@smtp113.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <SNT129-W518EAD0118AE20545198F3E61F0@phx.gbl>, <719511.28420.qm@smtp115.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <SNT131-ds195C4D77D99D90330C71A6A01F0@phx.gbl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2010 17:11:43.0795 (UTC) FILETIME=[12518030:01CAD02C]
Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
X-BeenThere: storm@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Storage Maintenance WG <storm.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm>, <mailto:storm-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/storm>
List-Post: <mailto:storm@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:storm-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm>, <mailto:storm-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:11:20 -0000

Mallikarjun,

 

I was referring to the MPA-version of markers only, and the Chelsio iSCSI HBA do

not support iSCSI markers.

 

Regards,

 

'Asgeir
 
> From: cbm@chadalapaka.com
> To: marke@muttsnuts.com; storm@ietf.org
> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:42:07 -0700
> Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
> 
> I believe out of order placement continues to be critical for efficient
> RNIC/DDP implementations, and markers play a role there.
> 
> Having said that, IMHO, that is not exactly the question we should tackle on
> this thread.
> 
> We should focus on these two iSCSI-centric questions: 
> 
> 1) Are there implementations out there that implement iSCSI Markers *as
> defined by RFC 3720*? (Asgeir may have answered this question as "yes", but
> he referenced an RNIC so I am not sure if he's referring to the MPA-version
> of markers or iSCSI key-driven markers)
> 
> 2) If "yes" to #1, if we drop iSCSI Markers in the new Consolidated draft,
> would that cause problems to any "applications" - i.e. iSCSI and SCSI stacks
> in either commercial O/S or proprietary embedded implementations?
> 
> 
> If the answer to the second question is "No", we can go ahead and drop it
> from the iSCSI Consolidated draft, independent of MPA/DDP/RDMAP.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mallikarjun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: storm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Mark S. Edwards
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:22 AM
> To: storm@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
> 
> Asgeir,
> 
> Yes, I do understand and remember all the arguments.  Indeed, I remember one
> of Randy's theoretical presentations positing that a marker aware 10GB
> offload NIC might only require as little as 2K onboard buffering RAM.
> 
> The point is, that at least for iSCSI the technology that arrived seems to
> marginalised the need for anyone to implement markers.  Given the fact that
> running code creates IETF consensus we have an opportunity at this time to
> remove unnecessary complications, markers are a candidate for being made
> optional or even being removed completely.
> 
> Personally I would be happy to see them removed.  My original note on this
> topic was to try to be a good citizen by asking anyone who might be
> affected, or know someone who would be affected, to speak up.
> 
> Mark.
> 
> 
> At 16:28 30/03/2010, Asgeir Eiriksson wrote:
> 
> Paul, Mark
>  
> The main selling point for markers is that they enable out or order
> placement
> (on receive) while preserving in order completions and markers therefore
> have the
> potential of decreasing buffering requirements in RNIC and to a less extent
> in
> iSCSI HBA.
>  
> 'Asgeir 
>  
> ________________________________________
> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 15:49:11 +0100
> To: storm@ietf.org
> From: marke@muttsnuts.com
> Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
> 
> Paul,
> 
> That's pretty much my recollection, too.
> 
> One of those things that was thought to be a reasonable solution to a
> foreseeable change in the technology.  In the end, the technology found a
> different solution.
> 
> They were fascinating presentations, though.
> 
> Mark.
> 
> At 15:22 30/03/2010, Paul Koning wrote:
> Thanks Asgeir.
>  
> As I recall, the original idea behind markers is to make it possible to
> build 10G HBAs that can run at wire speed, which was believed to be
> impossible otherwise.
>  
> The subsequent record indicates that this was in fact not the case; 10G HBAs
> are feasible and have been built without resorting to markers.  There is no
> other reason for using markers.  So if the one reason that they were thought
> to be needed in fact turned out not to be real, the obvious thing to do is
> to remove the unused complications from the spec.
>  
> I suppose one could argue that, placed in an appendix and “optional to
> implement” they do no harm.  That’s a fair point.  If there is still a
> chance that they will turn out to be needed in the future we may want to go
> that way.  I personally would bet against that chance.
>  
>                 paul 
>  
> From: Asgeir Eiriksson [ mailto:asgeir_eiriksson@hotmail.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:24 AM
> To: Paul Koning; cbm@chadalapaka.com; marke@muttsnuts.com; storm@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
>  
> Hello Paul,
>  
> The Chelsio RNIC do support the marker feature, but as far as I know the
> feature
> has never been used in the field, and it isn't supported by all RNIC
> implementations. 
>  
> I periodically ask our AE and developers about this feature and so far the
> answer
> is that no one uses it, and no one is asking for it (4 years of data at this
> point).
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Asgeir Eiriksson
> CTO
> Chelsio Communications Inc.
>  
> > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:01:49 -0400
> > From: Paul_Koning@Dell.com
> > To: cbm@chadalapaka.com; marke@muttsnuts.com; storm@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
> > 
> > I sure would like markers to go away. Rumors of their use are somewhat
> > interesting, but substantiated data would be more so.
> > 
> > paul
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org [ mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > > Of Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
> > > Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 8:33 PM
> > > To: 'Mark S. Edwards'; storm@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [storm] Removing iSCSI Markers?
> > > 
> > > Just to clarify...
> > > 
> > > > On another removal topic, I seem to recall that Mallikarjun also
> > said
> > > > that he was removing markers.
> > > 
> > > I had only said that it's one of the items I had heard prior requests
> > > on
> > > (that it be removed). Thanks for initiating the list discussion
> > > though!
> > > 
> > > > but I do wonder if this will affect any HBA implementations ?
> > > 
> > > Good question, I don't know. HBA vendors, especially iSCSI/iSER/RNIC
> > > "roto-tilled" implementations, please chime in.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Mallikarjun
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: storm-bounces@ietf.org [ mailto:storm-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > Mark
> > > > S. Edwards
> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 6:56 AM
> > > > To: storm@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [storm] Draft minutes from Anaheim
> > > >
> > > > Regarding the feature removal discussion, can I add SLP to the list
> > ?
> > > >
> > > > The RFC 3721 states
> > > >
> > > > "iSCSI equipment that
> > > > need discovery functions beyond SendTargets should at least
> > > > implement SLP, and then consider iSNS when extended discovery
> > > > management capabilities are required such as in larger
> > storage
> > > > networks. It should be noted that since iSNS will support
> > > SLP,
> > > > iSNS can be used to help manage the discovery information
> > > returned
> > > > by SLP."
> > > >
> > > > The implication is that targets and initiators should expect to find
> > > > support for SLP before considering iSNS.
> > > >
> > > > I remember our first iSCSI appliance and we spent ages trying to get
> > > > SLP working because it the above wording effectively made it
> > > > mandatory. SLP turned out to be a complete bust and was effectively
> > > > killed off when Microsoft refused to support it in their initiator
> > > > and in their target logo tests.
> > > >
> > > > The result is that today I doubt you could find a target or
> > initiator
> > > > out there supporting SLP.
> > > >
> > > > For anybody that does still implement SLP we could change the
> > wording
> > > > for SLP a little to remove the implied hierarchy, or just admit that
> > > > running code has created IETF consensus.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On another removal topic, I seem to recall that Mallikarjun also
> > said
> > > > that he was removing markers. I don't particularly object to this
> > > > but I do wonder if this will affect any HBA implementations ?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mark.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 06:59 27/03/2010, Black_David@emc.com wrote:
> > > > >Draft minutes are attached - please comment, correct, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >Also, in the absence of objection on this mailing list, decisions
> > > > >recorded in the minutes are considered to be the rough consensus of
> > > > >this WG, *except* that two issues were identified as sufficiently
> > > > >important to discuss separately on the list (see separate
> > messages):
> > > > > - Text negotiation key for new iSCSI features (discussion
> > > > > in progress)
> > > > > - Features to remove from iSCSI (discussion to be started)
> > > > >
> > > > >Many thanks to Craig Carlson for taking notes during the meeting.
> > > > >
> > > > >Thanks,
> > > > >--David
> > > > >----------------------------------------------------
> > > > >David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
> > > > >EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748
> > > > >+1 (508) 293-7953 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786
> > > > >black_david@emc.com Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> > > > >----------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >storm mailing list
> > > > >storm@ietf.org
> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > storm mailing list
> > > > storm@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > storm mailing list
> > > storm@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm
> > _______________________________________________
> > storm mailing list
> > storm@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm
> ________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox. Sign up now.
> 
> ________________________________________
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> Learn More. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> storm mailing list
> storm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/storm
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850553/direct/01/