Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248bis-05
"Ben Campbell" <ben@nostrum.com> Wed, 25 May 2016 20:25 UTC
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 15:25:15 -0500
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Cc: stox@ietf.org, draft-ietf-stox-7248bis.all@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248bis-05
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On 25 May 2016, at 15:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Yes, I think it's ready to go. I can give it a once-over consistency > check first if you'd like, though. Only if you think it needs it. Otherwise I will dive in shortly. Thanks! Ben. > > Thanks! > > Peter > > On 5/25/16 1:55 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> Hi Peter, >> >> I'm catching up on some backlog. Is this version ready to go in your >> opinion, or was there more work to do? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> On 28 Apr 2016, at 13:47, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >>> I just submitted -08 to address this issue (and clean up some >>> related >>> text and examples). >>> >>> On 4/28/16 10:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> Good point. I think "notification dialog" sounds right. I'm trying >>>> to >>>> avoid the term "subscription"... >>>> >>>> Sent from mobile, might be terse >>>> >>>>> On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:19 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 28 Apr 2016, at 9:13, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/20/16 4:45 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>>>> A further thought... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 09/28/2015 09:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 28 Sep 2015, at 21:39, Peter Saint-Andre - &yet wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/24/15 11:55 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <snip/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, how does this violate the SIP semantic? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There's a mismatch in the meaning of subscribe. Treating a >>>>>>>>>>> SIP >>>>>>>>>>> subscription as if it were long-lived means the gateway >>>>>>>>>>> follows the >>>>>>>>>>> XMPP subscription model, not the SIP subscription model. A >>>>>>>>>>> gateway >>>>>>>>>>> implementer needs to choose which model to honor, and if it >>>>>>>>>>> chooses >>>>>>>>>>> the XMPP model then it's not honoring the SIP model (and >>>>>>>>>>> vice-versa). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think this depends on the resolution to the previous >>>>>>>>>> comment, >>>>>>>>>> but I >>>>>>>>>> would say that if the protoocl behavior expectations of the >>>>>>>>>> SIP >>>>>>>>>> subscriber are met, the semantic has not been violated. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe. :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It still seems to me that the gateway is enforcing one model >>>>>>>>> or the >>>>>>>>> other. Perhaps "violate" is a strong word in this context, >>>>>>>>> though. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think we may be reading too much into the "ephemeral" >>>>>>>> subscription >>>>>>>> model, while still trying to think of an xmpp subscription and >>>>>>>> a SIP >>>>>>>> subscription of modeling the same thing. Both XMPP and SIP have >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> ephemeral component and a long-lived component. In XMPP, the >>>>>>>> subscription is long lived, and the presence session is >>>>>>>> relatively >>>>>>>> ephemeral. In SIP, the authorization policy, and the presence >>>>>>>> of an >>>>>>>> entity on a contact list are long lived, and the subscription >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> ephemeral. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So if we think of an XMPP subscription as equivalent to SIP >>>>>>>> subscriber >>>>>>>> authorization, and an XMPP presence session as equivalent to a >>>>>>>> SIP >>>>>>>> subscription, I think we can avoid violence to the assumptions >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> either >>>>>>>> side. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That too is helpful toward a better description of the mismatch >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> models. >>>>>> >>>>>> I propose to add the following paragraph to the introduction: >>>>>> >>>>>> Although specifications for both SIP and XMPP use the term >>>>>> "subscription", the term is employed in different ways. In >>>>>> SIP, a >>>>>> "subscription" is the mechanism whereby a subscriber requests >>>>>> presence notifications from the contact over a relatively >>>>>> short >>>>>> period of time, renewed as necessary to keep receiving >>>>>> presence >>>>>> notifications. By contrast, in XMPP a "subscription" is >>>>>> essentially >>>>>> shorthand for a long-lived presence authorization. To prevent >>>>>> confusion, this document uses the term "notification request" >>>>>> for >>>>>> SIP subscriptions and the term "presence authorization" for >>>>>> XMPP >>>>>> subscriptions. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Peter, >>>>> >>>>> I think this is on the right track. But I'm afraid SIP people >>>>> might >>>>> confuse "notification request" with "NOTIFY request", i.e. the >>>>> NOTIFY message itself. >>>>> >>>>> To put things is SIP terms, would "subscription dialog" or >>>>> "notification dialog" work? (Or maybe just "dialog"?) >>>>> >>>>>> Then modify the rest of the document accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>> I started making these changes last night and will post a revised >>>>>> I-D either today or tomorrow. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248bis-05 Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre