Re: [Suit] next steps in clarifying scoping terminology for SUIT, CoSWID, MUD and SBOM

Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> Thu, 11 June 2020 13:13 UTC

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From: Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com>
To: "lwip@ietf.org" <lwip@ietf.org>
CC: suit <suit@ietf.org>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Suit] next steps in clarifying scoping terminology for SUIT, CoSWID, MUD and SBOM
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/suit/YFC3ua2ll9TnjtzyJDWXcRfOc64>
Subject: Re: [Suit] next steps in clarifying scoping terminology for SUIT, CoSWID, MUD and SBOM
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My reply appears to have fallen prey to the same problem as Michael’s message.

Best Regards,
Brendan

> On 11 Jun 2020, at 14:05, Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:
>
> I think there may be some misconceptions about SUIT here.
>
> The SUIT charter says:
>
>> This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution (taking into
>> account past learnings from RFC 4108 and other firmware update solutions) that
>> will be usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) devices, i.e., devices with
>> ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capable devices
>> as well.
>
> The suit manifest does, happily, apply to more capable devices. The suit manifest is, in principle, being adopted in TEEP, which targets more capable devices.
>
> Certainly, the design of suit was explicitly intended to target Class 1 devices, however I am not aware of any missing feature or any missing functionality that would inherently restrict SUIT from being used for many component, high capability systems.
>
> I see no inherent problem with using suit manifests to deploy smartphone apps, docker containers, VM images, linux packages, kernel images, recovery partitions or bootloaders.
>
> Please could you explain what the problem you see is that would make suit inappropriate for smartphone apps or many-component systems.
>
> Best Regards,
> Brendan
>
>> On 9 Jun 2020, at 17:13, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> {I've set the reply-to to lwig, which I think is appropriate}
>>
>> SUIT aims at devices where the firmware can be updated as one (or a counted
>> on fingers few) blob.  This is a good constraint, and because it's a "few"
>> blobs, the edge isn't overly sharp.
>>
>> For instance, we have a common understanding that while SUIT is inappropriate
>> for Smartphone APPs, it is appropriate for the core "System", "Rescue" and
>> "Radio/Broadband" images that are typical for phones.
>> Such smartphones do not fit into RFC7228, and yet they are not "unconstrained"
>>
>> We constrast SUIT to devices where the is potentially many packages that
>> can be updated, up to and including the Linux/Windows desktop/server
>> environment where there are potentially thousands of packages.
>>
>> In RFC7228, we described a series of useful terms and classes, and we have
>> repeatedly come back wishing to have some notions of "class 3+" to describe
>> classes of more capable devices, up to and including "classic" desktop and
>> server OS installations.
>>
>> I think that as we move towards dealing with SBOM concepts (whether via
>> CoSWID, or in liason to IoTSF and/or NTIA) that it would be useful if we
>> worked on an rfc7228bis (or a companion document: nothing wrong with 7228 really),
>> that allowed us to speak more intelligently about different classes of
>> devices.
>>
>> I believe that this should go to the point of having an IANA Registry
>> for the class types, and that RFC8520(MUD) and maybe CoSWID would want to
>> assert such a thing.  And probably into some other netmod protocol.
>>
>> Given device FOO on one's Enterprise network, which seems to have a
>> vulnerability, how does one upgrade it?
>>
>> Forklift? JTAG cable? OTA via custom protocol? OTA with SUIT?
>> "apt-get"? "windows-update"? Can device download while it is operational?
>>
>> For instance, my impression is that 90% of Industrial/Smart-City IoT devices
>> in a space way above class 2 (a class 4 or 5!) which are essentially a
>> RPI/Grapeboard/equivalent.  In the *best case* running a Yocto build with
>> many many input packages, but only a single image on the output.  In a worst
>> case, they are literally Raspberry PI running Raspbian, and dpkg, with
>> the resulting SDcard getting cloned.
>>
>> These devices are hardwired/cabled manually, or experience two-touch
>> onboarding to WiFI or Lora... and they talk back to some cloud provided
>> system that itself may have an unknown set of packages.
>>
>> The SBOM situation could not be worse: it would not surprise me to find
>> gnutls, openssl and gpg crypto on the target system, each with their
>> own copy a RSA and ECDSA encrypt,  and should some new oracle/etc. kind
>> of attack to come along, that devices in the field will be completely
>> unevenly patched.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>

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