Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation
Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com> Tue, 09 December 2008 22:43 UTC
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From: Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:42:26 -0800
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>,
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tsv-area@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation
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On 3 Dec, 2008, at 13:57, james woodyatt wrote: > The "transport layer" is identified by the upper layer protocol > header at the end of the extension header chain of the inner-most > encapsulated IP packet. This might be a fine answer to the question, "What is the transport layer?" on the mid-term exam for an introductory undergraduate networking class. The notion of layers in networking is an artificial simplifying assumption introduced to help us think about software design (and to help ISO divide their people up into seven committees). Like all simplifying assumptions, there are cases where it is helpful, and cases where it is not. This is a case where religious adherence to apparent layer boundaries is not helpful. Bryan Ford's excellent "Breaking Up the Transport Logjam" presentation pointed out that what we call the "transport layer" artificially takes three functions (demux, flow control, and operational abstraction) and lumps them together in what we traditionally call "transport layer", while leaving out other functions (session, presentation, etc.) and artificially deeming them to be "not transport layer". Such artificial distinctions do not help guide our networking design thought processes in useful ways. For our purposes here, there are three relevant groupings: C. Application/Presentation/Transport/etc. B. IP A. Datalink/Hardware/etc. In group (A) there are differences due to inherent differences in the underlying hardware. The purpose of IP (group B) is to homogenize away those hardware differences and present a uniform service model. In group (C) there are intentional differences due to the different requirements of different applications. The point is that the differences in group (C) are *intentional*. Different applications have different requirements. The whole *point* of having different transport protocols is that they offer different operating semantics -- e.g. UDP preserves message boundaries; TCP does not. I think that when we denote a certain application protocol using a name like "foobar", that name has to encompass the complete package of everything the application uses, requires, and assumes, from the IP layer up. Tempting as it is to think of networking as a set of tinker-toy components that can be just plugged together in whatever order we feel like, in the real world software is a lot more brittle than that. I'm all in favour of applications negotiating capabilities and requirements, but that has to be done by the applications, and done carefully, with thorough testing. Thinking that we can solve this problem by just enumerating all the permutations in the DNS seems naive to me. Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com> * Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc. * Internet Architecture Board * www.stuartcheshire.org _______________________________________________ tae mailing list tae@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tae
- [tae] Transport negotiation Bryan Ford
- Re: [tae] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] Transport negotiation Janardhan Iyengar
- Re: [tae] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Lloyd Wood
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Lloyd Wood
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Stuart Cheshire
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation james woodyatt
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation james woodyatt
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation james woodyatt
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Lloyd Wood
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Lloyd Wood
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation John Leslie
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Stuart Cheshire
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation John Leslie
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation james woodyatt
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Stuart Cheshire
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Stuart Cheshire
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation james woodyatt
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation james woodyatt
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation John Leslie
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Lloyd Wood
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Lloyd Wood
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport checksum Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Phelan, Tom
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Phelan, Tom
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation james woodyatt
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Stuart Cheshire
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Bryan Ford
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Bryan Ford
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Bryan Ford
- [tae] Host versus Endpoint Granularity (was Re: T… Bryan Ford
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation L.Wood
- Re: [tae] [tsv-area] Transport negotiation Joe Touch