Re: [tao-discuss] Review Request for Possible Revision of the Tao of the IETF

Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> Fri, 08 April 2022 20:19 UTC

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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Rich Salz <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, tao-discuss@ietf.org, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
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Subject: Re: [tao-discuss] Review Request for Possible Revision of the Tao of the IETF
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On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 4:50 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, I sent that message without proof-reading, so where I wrote:
>
> I urge the IETF, busy as you are, to take this review issue seriously.
>
> I meant:
>
> I urge the IESG, busy as you are, to take this review issue seriously.
>
> But I wasn't wrong. I think RFC6722 was very wrong not to require IETF
> review of updates to the Tao, especially for a massive update like this
> one. It's quite unreasonable to put that extra load on the IESG alone.
> RFC6722 being informational, it isn't a rule, so I urge the IESG to put
> this out for community review. That can only make it better.
>

I'll note that, even if RFC6722 were a "Standards Track With A Cherry On
The Top" document, what it says is:
"The Tao has traditionally been an IETF consensus document, which means
that the IESG has had the final say about what the Tao contained before it
was sent to the RFC Editor.  Thus, the IESG should have final say regarding
what the Tao says when it is a web page."

I read that as "it used to be a consensus document, and the IESG had final
say. As a web-page the IESG still has final say", with an implication that
the same sort of review would continue to be done.  There is nothing that
says that the IESG should do the review on our own, nor that we cannot or
should not ask the community, just that the final say/approval is the
responsibility of the IESG.

When it used to be published as an IETF consensus document, the normal
process would have been for the IESG to ask the community to review it (by
doing a last-call). I don't think that we can use the current tooling to do
a last-call of a web-page/site/something other than a draft, but it does
seem like we should be able to do something close enough by sending mail —
something like:

---
The IESG has received a request from the editor of the Tao to consider the
new version: <here>

For background, RFC6722 - Publishing the "Tao of the IETF" as a Web Page (
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6722.html) describes the process by when
the Tao of the IETF is edited and published as a webpage.

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2022-04-15. Exceptionally, comments may
be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning
of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

----

Actually, I personally think that the Tao itself should be still published
as an RFC, which can then be prettied up into "glossy pictures with the
circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each" and posted on the
website, but that's just my personal view - I don't really know the history
behind RFC6722, and so I don't know why we moved away from that model.

W



>
> Regards
> Brian
> On 08-Apr-22 08:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>
>
> On 08-Apr-22 07:52, Salz, Rich wrote:
>
> I would ask though that going forward, we find a way for the IESG to
> review just the changes to the Tao again - that is how we usually evaluate
> "bis" documents. ADs don't have much time, and reviewing a diff is much
> faster than reviewing an entire document.
>
> FWIW, I recommend that going forward, the IESG doesn't review this
> document, as it doesn't officially review the rest of the website either.
>
> And there's the bug. Not only the lack of IESG review, but also the lack
> of community review, of our face presented to the world.
>
> Maybe it should be an EMODIR document.
>
> EMO does a great job. But that doesn't exempt their output from community
> review.
>
> I urge the IETF, busy as you are, to take this review issue seriously.
>
> Brian
>
> Ah well, I'll have a 6722-bis to bring to DISPATCH for IETF 114.
>
>
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>
>