Re: [tao-discuss] Review Request for Possible Revision of the Tao of the IETF

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Wed, 13 April 2022 21:09 UTC

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To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:08:52 +1200
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Subject: Re: [tao-discuss] Review Request for Possible Revision of the Tao of the IETF
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On 14-Apr-22 01:44, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>     Not having write access to the repo, it seems I can't issue a PR.
>      I have a branch and a PR ready to go, with a modest number of minor
>      fixes, if someone can authorize becarpenter.
> 
> If that is necessary, it would have to be Neils or maybe Greg.  I don't have any permissions.  I don't think I was "added" to the repository, and I don't recall asking for permission to make a pull request.  You sure?

I'm sure of nothing when using gh, but GitHub Desktop on Windows told me I had to be authorized to publish a branch and issue a PR. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

> 
>      > Marshall Rose once remarked that the IETF was a place to go for "many	 		
>      > fine lunches and dinners".
> 
>>     This statement from the old Tao has disappeared. I think that's a shame,
>>     but to restore it, some explanation would have to be added.
> 
> Are you sure about the reference?  The only place I could dig up was a reference to Carl Maladum's travelogue. I was also told that it was about ITU/ISO meetings, as a pejorative comment that this was their main purpose.  Perhaps it shows up in Marshall's "The Open Book" or n the "Beep" book, but I don't have those any more.  Maybe someone else could check. I also think without context it makes no sense, and is an amusing (perhaps cynical) comment not appropriate for a newcomer's doc.

I think the original citation is Marshall T. Rose., 1990, "The open book: a practical perspective on OSI", Prentice-Hall, Inc., USA.

"A Goer attends meetings to deal with weighty political issues, travel, and have many fine lunches and dinners..."  (Google found that; I don't have the book.)

He was sneering at the difference between Goers and Doers, and I think it's never been quite rightly used in the Tao, even back to RFC1391. So let me rephrase my question: do we want to mention the difference between Goers and Doers?

> 
>>     > WG chairs are advised to participate in the WG chairs lunch mid-week...
> 
>>     That doesn't seem to be mentioned any more. Was that intentional?
> 
> Yes, because WG chairs aren't newcomers.

OK, makes sense.

> 
>>     > However, some WG chairs never manage to get their WG to finish,...
> 
>>     This topic seems to have vanished. Do we want to pretend it never
>      happens?
> 
> What was the last time it happened, PKIX?  I don't think it's needed in this informal introduction to the IETF and its processes.

Not perhaps in those words, but perhaps what's really missing is a paragraph
about the appeals process and when it might be reasonable to bypass the WG
chairs and contact the AD.

> 
>>     > Some Working Groups have complex documents or a complex set of documents	 		
>>     > (or even both)...
> 
>>     Ditto. But it leads to those terrible AUTH48 delays. Do we want to pretend
>      that never happens either?
> 
> Longer documents take longer to prepare.  Kinda obvious, no?

To people with SDO experience, yes, but the issue of multiple interlocking
documents is less obvious.

> 
>>     > If a participant makes significant contributions, the document editor or
>>     > chair can invite the participant to become a co-author or co-editor, ...
> 
>>     This point seems to have got lost too.
> 
> Not "seems" :)  Yes it was removed.
> 
> An overall comment on your feedback.  You can't have an informal document *intended for newcomers* that is comprehensive and covers every nook and cranny of IETF history and procedures.  For example, one of the most important take-aways in Section 4 is the preparation section, which says "[they] are explicitly not for education" and read the documents first.  Discussion of authorship is in the noise compared to that.
> 
> Of course, this is my opinion.

Yes, what goes in is a judgment call. I picked on things I personally would leave in.

     Brian