Re: [tao-discuss] Fwd: Re: what to do about missing cites and encouraging better citing

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Sat, 30 June 2018 02:31 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tao-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tao-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D330130E45 for <tao-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hw8E_De7C4jI for <tao-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 19:31:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pl0-x232.google.com (mail-pl0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FD0F130DDF for <tao-discuss@ietf.org>; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 19:31:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pl0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c41-v6so5274575plj.10 for <tao-discuss@ietf.org>; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 19:31:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h+ZCGMh4JfzvkwlZ5BBlHuS/MrG2JCGLaWmGrZdcZyg=; b=QhbHgcMuTv80eQFBTYfrihyXKfgx2fUIBRTdxDmCbKaNyd4ACw9cYJ+VgbuDUNrJzA KAMGfDCMhRPOqN/jnt0AyRX+pUrfzQgLLFmBjJpClOIX6YJVOqT+anN1G8ef5UV2vWdq 7XvmDaplO6dSth17+eFA6DjNxsIid6NsghoQ7NcaVUVbP3a9hxupwL+TLaLAWyyMJd+d GFYlEOAbJ0O45wce56k/+my2Ewy+s6H2TmHe4SXOW5mA4grl5W+thoovl8KAR6msyo8w JtMMAolYyyVDfG89emmSjr91QYwYrgYd0SLSDC79Eu2LyYz3xsdyE5gQFXvOZm8smV69 /a2g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h+ZCGMh4JfzvkwlZ5BBlHuS/MrG2JCGLaWmGrZdcZyg=; b=kUMlICKCs0tnIGce62E+vZHGlBUyASrGM3tuQjDetzCJ8e8Ky0bRqHYBxdMaYUXpE6 3kOezYUgbLGCIKgvSbDaeyNO1glLWKLO66wY+WhKFh0rzc30Dyed8FipzKbIW1WVaE+r k06DL1XNklJam/8JPaGRBjFdQjhlvnjA967NNyaRuEFEEuUnSoqjfG4HdbTPL9IdRmh4 dOoXIB/u9x70xB6LaBHZ2Qz8oocdS04nOm6J6qL+Wb7f+CwrCBBmJv5cLPi3agP+v4x0 JiiiLcYRxUGlSxROc5uB5tfhLCL+ileLcyup7q14J65zK7M2PEfTTqNB0bOZMwSgxJDT 87iA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3cT+xYtzGslvDU2qHTU2UlFDHdEGHCUAOqJZ8LCm/oMsOqJbm1 D0AeKvxICB6UA66dDKqzx4+9nQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLlKRb87ycRxroJKvMXalCXQbhDnzOH3MFFiTqnOJSKnLhFOXt6NiHqhWdxhzICgMLGOy7kyw==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a508:: with SMTP id s8-v6mr17493556plq.223.1530325870626; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 19:31:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.178.38] ([118.148.121.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f16-v6sm25260815pff.57.2018.06.29.19.31.08 for <tao-discuss@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Jun 2018 19:31:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: tao-discuss@ietf.org
References: <2b16b471-8d23-1d52-dd5d-275290a1fdf2@rfc-editor.org> <b8114894-6cb4-a226-1151-0b7965045f91@gmail.com> <5e17f48f-f873-c9a0-9cdd-97a5dbbb443e@nielstenoever.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20e8a5c2-d204-e641-dbb2-0a14e02e32ff@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:31:14 +1200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <5e17f48f-f873-c9a0-9cdd-97a5dbbb443e@nielstenoever.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tao-discuss/_vN9f5kCtY1wBnufw-ADMjmQvBo>
Subject: Re: [tao-discuss] Fwd: Re: what to do about missing cites and encouraging better citing
X-BeenThere: tao-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26
Precedence: list
List-Id: Discussion of the Tao of the IETF <tao-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tao-discuss>, <mailto:tao-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tao-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:tao-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tao-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tao-discuss>, <mailto:tao-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 02:31:14 -0000

Niels,

Sorry, I'm out of time before the IETF but you are very welcome to
cut & paste any of my text that you want.

Regards
   Brian

On 28/06/2018 00:12, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Sounds good to me. Would you have concrete suggestions?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Niels
> 
> On 06/26/2018 10:36 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Forwarding this because it includes:
>>
>>> I think a note on the IETF norms for referencing other RFCs to be a good 
>>> thing to include in the Tao.
>>
>> And maybe some of the waffle in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-whats-an-author would also fit in the Tao?
>>
>>    Brian
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: Re: what to do about missing cites and encouraging better citing
>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 13:24:12 -0700
>> From: Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) <rse@rfc-editor.org>
>> To: ietf@ietf.org
>>
>> On 6/25/18 12:52 AM, John C Klensin wrote:
>>>
>>> --On Sunday, June 24, 2018 17:14 -0700 Randy Bush
>>> <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> but didn't detect great enthusiasm in the community for
>>>>> dealing with authorship ethics in general.
>>>> how embarrassing and shameful
>>> Randy,
>>>
>>> While I agree that this is embarrassing and shameful (and could
>>> add other words), I question one aspect of your earlier note.
>>>
>>> At least until the IAB decides to micromanage that, an erratum
>>> and its appropriateness is determined by the discretion of the
>>> RFC Series Editor.  The term is arguably not precisely correct
>>> for the way we use the things and I've seen many of them whose
>>> subject matter or content would not be appropriate if the
>>> classic publisher definition were used.
>>>
>>> So I would recommend a conversation with Heather (copied) and
>>> use of the errata mechanism, at least unless she strongly
>>> disagrees and wants to propose another mechanism.  That would at
>>> least get citation on the record.  While I'm not optimistic, if
>>> author(s) are shamed sufficiently to not omit such citations in
>>> the future, that would be A Good Thing.  I think all of us
>>> should be encouraged to watch for obvious omissions on Last Call
>>> and would encourage document shepherds and responsible ADs (in
>>> the IETF Stream) and reviewers (in others) to pay attention to
>>> the issue.
>>
>> Heather does not disagree - the errata system is the best mechanism we 
>> have at this time, and it does allow an author to respond as needed.
>>
>>>
>>> I would suggest to Heather that a mention of this as the Style
>>> Guide evolves would probably also be a good thing -- it isn't as
>>> if adding relevant citations is difficult or costly.
>>
>> This is going to be a bit trickier. I'm supportive of adding something 
>> about author ethics, but it would be along the lines of "the RFC Editor 
>> will not be checking on this; you should do this because it's the right 
>> thing." We don't have the resources to do a full-on review of the 
>> literature; if the IETF wants that as a priority, we'll need to talk 
>> about costs and/or reprioritizing other RFC Editor activities.
>>
>> I think a note on the IETF norms for referencing other RFCs to be a good 
>> thing to include in the Tao.
>>
>> -Heather
>>
>>>
>>> We will probably never get everything right, but we can try
>>> harder.
>>>
>>> best,
>>>     john
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tao-discuss mailing list
>> tao-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tao-discuss
>>
>