Re: [Taps] New Version Notification for draft-welzl-taps-transports-00.txt

Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> Sat, 24 October 2015 01:15 UTC

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To: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:15:04 -0700
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Cc: "<gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Fairhurst" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "taps@ietf.org" <taps@ietf.org>, Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>, touch@isi.edu
Subject: Re: [Taps] New Version Notification for draft-welzl-taps-transports-00.txt
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+1

I have read this version in detail (and provided feedback), and think it
is a useful document.

Joe

On 10/5/2015 12:49 PM, Brian Trammell wrote:
> In transit, please excuse the brevity.
> 
> Broadly I appreciate the effort to do the decomposition in a less
> arbitrary way. I'm not convinced it's actually less arbitrary, but this
> is largely irrelevant: it's a *different* way to do the decomposition,
> so points of agreement (of which, at least on TCP and SCTP, there are
> many) reinforce confidence that we're doing this right. I tend to agree
> with Gorry's suggestion on the way forward.
> 
> Cheers, Brian
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 05 Oct 2015, at 11:42, Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com
> <mailto:aaron.falk@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Have others read this draft yet?   It is clearly aimed at addressing
>> charter deliverable #1.  Do other folks have an opinion on how well it
>> helps the group achieve the goals in our charter?  Should we use this
>> document in some way? I'm looking for more input from the working
>> group on how we should proceed. 
>>
>> My opinion: I am very mindful (& appreciative) of the significant
>> effort by Mirja and Brian and the other contributors on
>> draft-ietf-taps-transports.    The discussion around this doc has been
>> very useful for clarifying (to me) how difficult it can be to pull
>> useful common abstractions out of the 30+ years of transport
>> technologies.  Having been down this path for over a year, I
>> appreciate the fairly narrow approach draft-welzl-taps-transports and
>> think it may be the best chance for TAPS to succeed.  
>>
>> Please share your views.
>>
>> --aaron
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no
>> <mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no>> wrote:
>>
>>     +1
>>
>>     > On 26. sep. 2015, at 13.28, Marie-Jose Montpetit
>>     <marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com>> wrote:
>>     >
>>     > Makes sense.
>>     >
>>     >> On Sep 26, 2015, at 3:17 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk
>>     <mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>>     >>
>>     >> We seem to have two documents in a space where we started with
>>     one. These
>>     >> are different, to me this is OK. Both seem close to charter
>>     milestone 1. I
>>     >> don't see much overlap between the contents of the descriptive
>>     language
>>     >> and the API-focussed analysis, and any overlap could be eliminated.
>>     >>
>>     >> To me, doc 1 (current chartered item) can evolve to provide
>>     background and
>>     >> missing documentation for anyone in the IETF, and should compare
>>     >> transports in a broad way and draw out the idea that they provide
>>     >> services. This appears to be harder to get right than I for one
>>     had hoped,
>>     >> and still has a wide scope. Not a bad thing. I suggest it will
>>     provide a
>>     >> reference to stop us rat-holing when people ask what is "this"
>>     and explain
>>     >> how all these transports stack-up against one another (good
>>     pun?). We can
>>     >> (I suggest) finish this doc in this way.
>>     >>
>>     >> I do like the idea of a second document focussed ONLY on the
>>     Transport API
>>     >> (I'd call this 1a). In this we can avoid this"discussion of
>>     what are
>>     >> transports"  and move to  a  more focussed  process in doc 1b, 
>>     Most of
>>     >> that troublesome descriptive  text can go into 1, and ensure we
>>     keep that
>>     >> one readable to anyone in the  IETF.
>>     >>
>>     >> Could  I suggest the two docs against the first milestone will
>>     help us
>>     >> make  progress towards the next milestone faster. (Assuming we
>>     can keep
>>     >> the two aligned, which seems quite doable). I can see also how
>>     the  docs
>>     >> are useful to different people. I'd like to see both mature and
>>     provide
>>     >> inputs to move forward.
>>     >>
>>     >> Gorry
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>> Interesting and inline to getting transport API(s)
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Marie-José Montpetit
>>     >>> marie@mjmontpetit.com <mailto:marie@mjmontpetit.com>
>>     >>> mariejo@mit.edu <mailto:mariejo@mit.edu>
>>     >>>
>>     >>>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 04:44, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no
>>     <mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no>> wrote:
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> Dear all,
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> In my presentation in Prague, I proposed an approach to
>>     identify the
>>     >>>> services that transport protocols provide. At the end of the
>>     ensuing
>>     >>>> discussion, I said that I (with co-authors) would write a
>>     draft that
>>     >>>> explains the proposal by applying the proposed method to TCP
>>     and SCTP.
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> We just submitted this document - see below;  I hope that
>>     this will lead
>>     >>>> to some discussion on the list...
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> Cheers,
>>     >>>> Michael
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>
>>     >>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>     >>>>> draft-welzl-taps-transports-00.txt
>>     >>>>> Date: 21 Sep 2015 10:35:33 CEST
>>     >>>>> To: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no
>>     <mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no>>, Michael Welzl
>>     >>>>> <michawe@ifi.uio.no <mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no>>, Michael
>>     Tuexen <tuexen@fh-muenster.de <mailto:tuexen@fh-muenster.de>>, Naeem
>>     >>>>> Khademi <naeemk@ifi.uio.no <mailto:naeemk@ifi.uio.no>>,
>>     Michael Tuexen <tuexen@fh-muenster.de <mailto:tuexen@fh-muenster.de>>,
>>     >>>>> Naeem Khademi <naeemk@ifi.uio.no <mailto:naeemk@ifi.uio.no>>
>>     >>>>> Resent-From: <michawe@ifi.uio.no <mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-welzl-taps-transports-00.txt
>>     >>>>> has been successfully submitted by Michael Welzl and posted
>>     to the
>>     >>>>> IETF repository.
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>> Name:        draft-welzl-taps-transports
>>     >>>>> Revision:    00
>>     >>>>> Title:        An Approach to Identify Services Provided by IETF
>>     >>>>> Transport Protocols and Congestion Control Mechanisms
>>     >>>>> Document date:    2015-09-21
>>     >>>>> Group:        Individual Submission
>>     >>>>> Pages:        23
>>     >>>>> URL:
>>     >>>>>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-welzl-taps-transports-00.txt
>>     >>>>> Status:
>>     >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-welzl-taps-transports/
>>     >>>>> Htmlized:
>>     >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-taps-transports-00
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>> Abstract:
>>     >>>>> This document describes a method to identify services in
>>     transport
>>     >>>>> protocols and congestion control mechanisms.  It shows the
>>     approach
>>     >>>>> using TCP and SCTP (base protocol) as examples.
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the
>>     time of
>>     >>>>> submission
>>     >>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at
>>     tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>.
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> _______________________________________________
>>     >>>> Taps mailing list
>>     >>>> Taps@ietf.org <mailto:Taps@ietf.org>
>>     >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/taps
>>     >>>
>>     >>> _______________________________________________
>>     >>> Taps mailing list
>>     >>> Taps@ietf.org <mailto:Taps@ietf.org>
>>     >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/taps
>>     >>>
>>     >>
>>     >
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
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>>
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