Re: [Taps] IETF planning
Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Mon, 26 October 2015 14:46 UTC
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To: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>, Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com>
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:46:26 +0000
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Cc: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "taps@ietf.org" <taps@ietf.org>, Stein Gjessing <steing@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: [Taps] IETF planning
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On 26/10/2015 13:46, Michael Welzl wrote: > >> On 26. okt. 2015, at 14.17, Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com >> <mailto:aaron.falk@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:54 AM, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk >> <mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote: >> >> On 22/10/2015 15:14, Aaron Falk wrote: >> >> >> > draft-welzl-taps-transports currently only covers TCP >> and SCTP. But then: how many other protocols? >> > It seems people agree that the protocols covered in >> draft-welzl-taps-transports should be a subset of the >> protocols covered in draft-ietf-taps-transports. My question >> is, then: how to choose the subset? >> > >> > It seems obvious to include protocols that are seeing >> some deployment, i.e. of course UDP, maybe UDP-Lite (?), but >> also MPTCP… >> > However: if that is the only decision ground, we >> probably wouldn’t include DCCP. Are we then making a >> significant mistake, missing a lesson to be learned? >> > >> > That, to me, is a discussion I’d like to have in Yokohama. >> >> +1, and FWIW that's exactly the same starting point I got >> to on my own. >> >> >> Any volunteers to kick off the lead the discussion? >> >> >> >> <snip test on another draft> >> >> So, I think UDP, and UDP-Lite *NEED* to be included. MPTCOP also. > > Assuming this is a typo and you mean MPTCP, I agree. > Then we agree on this. > >> On DCCP, this has many services being re-invented above. I think >> we have an interesting dilemma about whether to describe this, I >> suggest one of the reason for the minimal use of DCCP (DCCP/UDP) >> could well be the lack of a framework that allows this to be done >> without recoding an app. So, if we had such a framework *WHEN* >> DCCP/UDP was done, we may now have seen more usage. > > I understand and agree, but that doesn’t help us now… > > >> I don't understand. Why leave out any of the protocols included in >> draft-ietf-taps-transports? Is there an argument other than for >> expedience? > > Working towards a realistic end-goal of a deployable system. > > So we’re i) describing services; ii) narrowing them down somehow; iii) > describing how to build this thing. > My concern is with iii) being something feasible and useful, not an > obscure sci-fi document. > > Say we include DCCP. It’ll add some services that aren’t in the other > protocols listed so far in this mail - e.g. drop notification (see > section 3.6.3 in draft-ietf-taps-transports). Say, in step ii), we find > no good arguments to remove drop notification. Then, in step iii), we’ll > have to say how a TAPS system can support drop notification. So, to > build a working TAPS system, one has to either: > - include DCCP in the code base > - extend other protocols to provide this functionality > > None of these two options are very helpful if we want to TAPS to be real > thing one day. > > I understand that we can see these as optional, and end up with a > document iii) that has a small mandatory base and lots of optional > things - but this will then be a huge document, of which only a small > subset will ever be implemented. Personally I think that’s a possibility > but not really what we should aim at. > > Cheers, > Michael > Yes, that discussion is probably consistent with my thinking - If we want to focus on what can be made right now, we can't include DCCP - not because it can't be done - a lot of code has been written, and we understand the spec - but because it's one step further-on than we currently can achieve easily in the first pass. (If that's the motivation for excluding it, I would understand at this stage.) I think one could say the same for other protocols that could/have been layered over UDP. Does that also therefore mean we don't currently include such other protocols? Gorry
- [Taps] IETF planning Aaron Falk
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Brian Trammell
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Aaron Falk
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Brian Trammell
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Aaron Falk
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Aaron Falk
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Stein Gjessing
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Michael Welzl
- Re: [Taps] IETF planning Mirja Kühlewind