Re: [tcmtf] TCMTF: Documents to be generated. Small modification

[FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO <[e-mail]>]

Hi Jose,

        I have doubts about the description of the second document, why are you
focusing the description on the tunneling layer? I understand that there
will be two options: a dialog (protocol) to negotiate every option at each
layer or three dialogs to negotiate each layer, but in that case the
tunnel layer will not be different from others. What do you think about a
description less tunnel oriented?

Regards,

Fernando Pascual Blanco
Telefónica Global Resources
Network Automation and Dynamization
TECHNOLOGY PEOPLE GROUP
F [phone]
M [phone]
[e-mail]




On 07/06/13 09:37, "Jose Saldana" <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Ok then.
>
>We can use these document names in the new version of the Charter (I will
>try to rewrite it by Tuesday):
>
>- TCMTF - reference model:
>       the protocol stack and scenarios. It should be said that each
>protocol at each layer will use its own signaling mechanisms.
>       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saldana-tsvwg-tcmtf/
>
>
>- TCMTF - negotiation protocol:
>       - a mechanism to setup/release a TCMTF tunnel between a multiplexer
>and a de-multiplexer, including the negotiation mechanism to decide the
>options to use at each layer
>
>
>- TCMTF - recommendations:
>       useful recommendations in order to decide which packet flows can or
>can not be multiplexed and how. A list of available traffic classification
>methods which can be used for identification of the service or application
>to which a particular flow belongs, as well as recommendations of the
>maximum delay and jitter to be added depending of the identified service
>or
>application.
>       http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-suznjevic-tsvwg-mtd-tcmtf/
>
>
>Any comments?
>
>Jose
>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] En nombre de
>> Diego R. Lopez
>> Enviado el: jueves, 06 de junio de 2013 15:15
>> Para: <[e-mail]>
>> CC: <[e-mail]>rg>; Mirko Sužnjević; FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO
>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] TCMTF: Documents to be generated. Small modification
>>
>> Hmmm... The necessary outcome of the negotiation is the setup. I'd keep
>> the shorter name.
>>
>> Be goode,
>>
>> On 6 Jun 2013, at 15:05 , Jose Saldana wrote:
>>
>> > One question:
>> >
>> > The new second draft should include:
>> >
>> > - The negotiation
>> > - The setup/release a TCMTF tunnel between a mux and a demux
>> >
>> > Do you think "TCMTF - negotiation protocol" also includes the second
>idea?
>> >
>> > Would it be better "TCMTF - negotiation and setup" ?
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Jose
>> >
>> >> -----Mensaje original-----
>> >> De: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] En nombre
>> >> de Mirko Sužnjevic Enviado el: jueves, 06 de junio de 2013 14:32
>> >> Para: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO; [e-mail]
>> >> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] TCMTF: Documents to be generated. Small
>> >> modification
>> >>
>> >> Yes i think that is better.
>> >> Mirko
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: FERNANDO PASCUAL BLANCO [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:53 PM
>> >> To: Mirko Sužnjević; [e-mail]
>> >> Subject: Re: [tcmtf] TCMTF: Documents to be generated. Small
>> >> modification
>> >>
>> >> And what about:
>> >>
>> >> TCMTF - negotiation protocol
>> >>
>> >> Do you found it more descriptive?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Fernando Pascual Blanco
>> >> Telefónica Global Resources
>> >> Network Automation and Dynamization
>> >> TECHNOLOGY PEOPLE GROUP
>> >> F [phone]
>> >> M [phone]
>> >> [e-mail]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 06/06/13 11:51, "Mirko Sužnjević" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hello,
>> >>> I think these names are ok. Maybe we should discuss the second one
>> >>> in more detail.
>> >>> Perhaps include negotiation in the name of the draft so its purpose
>> >>> is evident from the title? As the purpose of that draft is to
>> >>> establish which particular parameters will be used.
>> >>> My suggestions are:
>> >>> TCMTF - negotiation signalling
>> >>> TCMTF - negotiation process
>> >>> TCMTF - parameter signalling
>> >>> Or something along those lines?
>> >>> Mirko
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
>> >>> Behalf Of Jose Saldana
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2013 12:56 PM
>> >>> To: [e-mail]
>> >>> Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]; 'ken
>> >>> carlberg'; Martin Stiemerling
>> >>> Subject: [tcmtf] TCMTF: Documents to be generated. Small
>> >>> modification
>> >>>
>> >>> In the conf-call of yesterday it was also clear that for the IETF it
>> >>> is better to split Document A into two documents:
>> >>>
>> >>> - The "TCMTF reference model" (1): the protocol stack and scenarios.
>> >>> It should be said that each protocol at each layer will use its own
>> >>> signaling mechanisms.
>> >>>
>> >>> - The "TCMTF-specific signaling": there are some things we will need
>> >>> to
>> >>> deploy:
>> >>>      - a negotiation mechanism (2) to decide the options to use at
>> >>> each layer (e.g. a mux and demux agree on using ROHC+PPPMux+GRE)
>> >>>      - a mechanism to setup/release a TCMTF tunnel (3)between a
>> >>> multiplexer and a de-multiplexer
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The current draft is the TCMTF "reference model", since it does not
>> >>> talk about specific signaling issues.
>> >>>
>> >>> By now, we don't have to propose the "TCMTF specific signaling". It
>> >>> would be something to be deployed if the Working Group is created.
>> >>>
>> >>> This same idea was proposed by Ken Carlberg in February. The
>> >>> advantages of this new distribution of the documents are (quoting
>Ken):
>> >>>
>> >>>> One thing to keep in mind is that it is possible that (2) and (3)
>> >>>> (below) can change over time and yet (1) (the reference model) does
>> >>>> not, then it may be best to separate (1) from the other items.
>> >>>
>> >>>> a more encompassing architecture or framework that would include
>> >>>> sample scenarios upon which your deliverables A & B are aimed at?
>> >>>> My impression is that you may want to point the reader of documents
>> >>>> A & B to the same reference model, and instead of repeating the
>> >>>> same text, it may be helpful to separate this into a separate
>document.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Once discussed, I would create a new charter proposal including
>> >>> these changes.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Do you like these short names for the documents?
>> >>>
>> >>> - "TCMTF reference model".
>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saldana-tsvwg-tcmtf/
>> >>>
>> >>> - "TCMTF-specific signaling". Future work
>> >>>
>> >>> - "TCMTF recommendations".
>> >>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-suznjevic-tsvwg-mtd-tcmtf/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Your feedback will be welcome. Thanks!
>> >>>
>> >>> Jose
>> >>>
>> >>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> >>>> De: ken carlberg [mailto:[e-mail]] Enviado el: martes,
>> >>>> 05 de marzo de 2013 17:07
>> >>>> Para: [e-mail]
>> >>>> CC: 'ken carlberg'; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
>> >>>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about
>> >>>> TCMTF in
>> >>>> IETF87
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hola Jose,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks for the expanded explanation, and again, apologies for the
>> >>>> tardy repsonse.  Its helpful to understand that document A and B
>> >>>> are sequential
>> >>> to
>> >>>> each other.  One thing to keep in mind is that if its possible that
>> >>>> 2 and
>> >>> 3
>> >>>> (below) can change over time and yet 1 (the reference model) does
>> >>>> not, then it may be best to separate 1 from the other items.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as for what you outline as a discussion point for future work, it
>> >>>> seems
>> >>> fine.  I
>> >>>> just have a personal bias that if you have a clear idea of the
>> >>>> things
>> >>> you'd like
>> >>>> to accomplish in the future, then having a requirements document
>> >>>> would be helpful to focus those thoughts without having to have one
>> >>>> particular solution.  But that's a discussion point that could be
>> >>>> brought up during
>> >>> the
>> >>>> BoF, or sometime afterwards.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> cheers,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -ken
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> A main document (A) in which we explain the method, the scenarios
>> >>>>> and the minimum signaling issues in order to make it work. The
>> >>>>> idea is that document
>> >>>>> (A) would be self-contained. Since we are not defining new
>> >>>>> protocols
>> >>> (i.e.
>> >>>>> already existing compressing, multiplexing and tunneling protocols
>> >>>>> are to be used), we understand that this can be done in a single
>> >>>> document.
>> >>>>> It would
>> >>>>> include:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 1- Protocol stack (it would be the "reference model")
>> >>>>> 2- a negotiation mechanism to decide the options to use at each
>> >>>>> layer
>> >>>>> 3- a mechanism to setup/release a tunnel between a multiplexer and
>> >>>>> a de-multiplexer
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Of course, another approach could be separating 1 from 2&3.
>> >>>>> However, we think this is not necessary since the method is not
>> >>>>> too
>> >>>> complicated.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Document (B) would only contain recommendations of how to better
>> >>>>> use the method proposed in document (A), i.e., classification and
>> >>>>> maximum
>> >>>> delays.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So clearly document (B) would totally depend on the reference
>> >>>>> model of document (A).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The idea of point 9 is to talk about some other interesting ideas
>> >>>>> which are considered as "future work":
>> >>>>> - a mechanism for a multiplexer to discover a de-multiplexer
>> >>>>> - mechanism to select an optimal multiplexer and a de-multiplexer
>> >>>>> when there are more than one muxer/de-muxer for a flow
>> >>>>> - dynamically applying TCMTF
>> >>>>> - etc.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What do you think?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks again for your feedback. Thinking and explaining things is
>> >>>>> always a good exercise!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jose
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> >>>>>> De: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] En
>> >>>>>> nombre de ken carlberg Enviado el: miércoles, 27 de febrero de
>> >>>>>> 2013
>> >>>>>> 16:23
>> >>>>>> Para: [e-mail]
>> >>>>>> CC: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
>> >>>>>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about
>> >>>>>> TCMTF in
>> >>>>>> IETF87
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hola Jose,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> sorry for the tardy reply.  The altered text below is helpful,
>> >>>> thanks.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> With respect to your candidate deliverables, it appears that you
>> >>>>>> have
>> >>>>> listed
>> >>>>>> two for the proposed group: (A) a document that describes options
>> >>>>>> and negotiation mechanisms, and (B) a document describing
>> >>>> recommendations
>> >>>>>> of which packet types should be multiplexed and a list fo traffic
>> >>>>> classification
>> >>>>>> methods.  Have you considered a third document that presents a
>> >>>>>> more encompassing architecture or framework that would include
>> >>>>>> sample scenarios upon which your deliverables A & B are aimed at?
>> >>>>>> My impression
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>>> that you may want to point the reader of documents A & B to the
>> >>>>>> same reference model, and instead of repeating the same text, it
>> >>>>>> may be helpful to separate this into a separate document.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Also, would section 9 of your proposed charter lead one to
>> >>>>>> consider a requirements document?  Many times, new groups start
>> >>>>>> with a requirements document, but since you have a good focus of
>> >>>>>> what you want to accomplish, perhaps your last deliverable could
>> >>>>>> be a requirements document that would guide any future work.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -ken
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ps, I don't want to advocate more work, but rather just have you
>> >>>>>> consider other possibilities (and feel free to shoot them down
>> >>>>>> :-)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Feb 22, 2013, at 5:39 AM, Jose Saldana <[e-mail]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi Ken,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sorry for the delay. I think you are talking about Paragraph 5:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the
>> >>>>>>> protocol stack for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing
>> >>>>>>> traffic flows (TCMTF). Since standard protocols are being used
>> >>>>>>> at each layer, the signaling methods of those protocols will be
>used.
>> >>>>>>> Interactions with the Working Groups and Areas in which these
>> >>>>>>> protocols are developed can be expected. However, the
>> >> development
>> >>>>>>> of new compressing, multiplexing or tunneling protocols is not
>> >>>>>>> an objective of this Working Group. In addition, since the
>> >>>>>>> current RFC 4170 would be
>> >>>>>> considered as one of the options, this RFC could be obsoleted.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Perhaps this is a bit confusing. When we say "at each layer", we
>> >>>>>>> are talking about "tunneling, compressing and multiplexing"
>layers.
>> >>>>>>> Perhaps this can be a bit confusing. What about this?:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> 5. So the first objective of this group is to specify the
>> >>>>>>> protocol stack for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing
>> >>>>>>> traffic flows (TCMTF). Since standard protocols are being used
>> >>>>>>> for tunneling, compressing and multiplexing layers, the
>> >>>>>>> signaling methods of those
>> >>>>>> protocols will be used.
>> >>>>>>> Interactions with the Working Groups and Areas in which these
>> >>>>>>> protocols are developed can be expected. However, the
>> >> development
>> >>>> of
>> >>>>>>> new compressing, multiplexing or tunneling protocols is not an
>> >>>>>>> objective of this Working Group. In addition, since the current
>> >>>>>>> RFC
>> >>>>>>> 4170 would be considered as one of the options, this RFC could
>> >>>>>>> be
>> >>>>>> obsoleted.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Is this what you were asking?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your feedback.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Jose
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> >>>>>>>> De: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] En
>> >>>>>>>> nombre de ken carlberg Enviado el: martes, 19 de febrero de
>> >>>>>>>> 2013
>> >>>>>>>> 14:17
>> >>>>>>>> Para: [e-mail]
>> >>>>>>>> CC: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
>> >>>>>>>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] About the possibility of having a BOF about
>> >>>>>>>> TCMTF in
>> >>>>>>>> IETF87
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hola Jose,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> could you expand a bit more on your text in the proposed
>> >>>>>>>> charter regarding "signaling methods".  Are you speaking in the
>> >>>>>>>> more general context of information stored in headers of
>> >>>>>>>> various protocol up and down the stack
>> >>>>>>> (ie,
>> >>>>>>>> layers 3, 4, and 5/app)?  Or, are you  speaking of concurrent
>> >>>>>>>> resource signaling protocols like RSVP/RSVP-TE, or path
>> >>>>>>>> establishment protocols
>> >>>>>>> like
>> >>>>>>>> MPLS?  Or, some combination of both?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> -ken
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> tcmtf mailing list
>> >>>>>>>> [e-mail]
>> >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> tcmtf mailing list
>> >>>>>> [e-mail]
>> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf
>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> tcmtf mailing list
>> >>> [e-mail]
>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcmtf
>> >>
>> >>
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>>
>> --
>> "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"
>>
>> Dr Diego R. Lopez
>> Telefonica I+D
>> http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/
>>
>> e-mail: [e-mail]
>> Tel:    [phone]
>> Mobile: [phone]
>> -----------------------------------------
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