Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] Cross-area alignment on "L4S and RACK"

Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> Fri, 09 November 2018 06:57 UTC

Return-Path: <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tcpm@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tcpm@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F635130DF7; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:57:15 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vshYYGF4shvE; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:57:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pg1-x532.google.com (mail-pg1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 027EC130DF5; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:57:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id y4so445527pgc.12; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 22:57:13 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=PeF/kQ9lo00fzJnb162IGp80hqUcQDzH6v+n4IBTNm4=; b=es3TpsoAOI+V4XZXI7rT6jhXPq2V4DingmMfn2A39f7nHnEVEwFTggyHzJ8xgTbm8v D7z5LLdTc7Mn3YZ2S8ScaFuRWM2LYCsdTbqQMhZt0OieyhKx1R9YY9DiOyfRt50VXURy bqZSnk1vLeeB3BWeYu8DL601oYXSFyHUQvINVFx3YrlHBv56vCiM4CY9R2uVlLvLsdMD VjZtTvowZyupgiR/RGnnI/JrtlcEHUH3LTWXXVuM/AMbvXruf2jLsT2LRz18l/uFxZ0k EtaZGUd7Rg/kteWoxSdlw6WL1Wx5Q+QAxgGj7w6yacpzEQsG8uVt2FHxfn6GM/LNVt7S jiJw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=PeF/kQ9lo00fzJnb162IGp80hqUcQDzH6v+n4IBTNm4=; b=Eh0T6a+xtmgLbk8AhJP6XVEbr86pFDBRxLL3xTQyqFUJE13j29/NsFUqo/Ay82wOjM 4KHTR7QwpYCUv6EXW7NmMkmfDlVg30MUiut2m/9x2MjfHRHfDuahq2ZJIW6nNY6Py4nb seVAkvK+DRwlBQu9CICtjPSCszZTNNf6YbscG4qOR4XE8wZvcOUOUV7cMgFpFpjpbYKN HZlJClaroDfqUoP3finpK61AdW/U3e1gPTb6wj6yv4qEKQ+4LkHjPx3gpPYkUIWN7ypk cR1Li+iwLoqNrI97JyGjYE3eRmWRqBCVdU8b1BiZn/TXE5PsDPZKaF0T2cjqPGAAvkI8 x/Qw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLUIMEhzHvoxSryCBKWffE9s56qwFJbzlunwXi5f69M+YITewOA hkBykNruGr52AfkSA/Mak8eD5cP+F4Y=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dzIo16QVSMBRzP61Z2NnaCV/InBOtvulsd7COtts2o4HwXo1hUBzuV02ShNEBEqSPXvHvQtA==
X-Received: by 2002:a65:520a:: with SMTP id o10mr6716259pgp.276.1541746633531; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 22:57:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.1.89] (static-222-229-224-101.adsl8.svips.gol.ne.jp. [222.229.224.101]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f18-v6sm15966481pfh.0.2018.11.08.22.57.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Nov 2018 22:57:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <BC34FE2B-6D7A-4A2D-9591-5295F5606FF5@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_26158937-70C1-456F-950C-41B3C7F89914"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\))
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 13:57:09 +0700
In-Reply-To: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152905@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de>
Cc: Bob Briscoe <in@bobbriscoe.net>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
To: "Scharf, Michael" <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>
References: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D14F3F0@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <110030da-11f7-c9c2-c059-2abdf6178864@bobbriscoe.net> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15201A@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <1f7ccdda-0e0c-4241-3cfb-b4fe4cc00b47@bobbriscoe.net> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152905@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tcpm/-nEMZRVm4kGItmGbJ4C5n9Z2qDU>
Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] Cross-area alignment on "L4S and RACK"
X-BeenThere: tcpm@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions Working Group <tcpm.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tcpm>, <mailto:tcpm-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tcpm/>
List-Post: <mailto:tcpm@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tcpm-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm>, <mailto:tcpm-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 06:57:16 -0000


> On Nov 9, 2018, at 1:21 PM, Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>; wrote:
> 
> I don’t see the fundamental difference between a link technology that guarantees in-order delivery within a flow (say by flow hashing, see ECMP) vs. some link scheme that guarantees in-order delivery, say, only for some fraction of the traffic characterized by some other means (say, other header bits).

A comment on ECMP via hashing; it doesn't guarantee in-order delivery. It does support-if-not-quite-guarantee in-order delivery as long as nothing changes. However, if relevant routing changes, sequence can be affected until routing stabilizes.

A lawyer told me once that "guarantee" is a word freighted with money...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war,
Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
     Sun Tzu