Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking
Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Fri, 08 November 2019 17:22 UTC
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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:22:12 +0000
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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CC: "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net" <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking
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Going up one level. This is punted to you as chairs for a common decison - AFAIK, it is your protocol to maintain, please think and advise on what it is called. Gorry On 08/11/2019, 17:04, Ingemar Johansson S wrote: > Hi Sebastian > > I clearly mentioned that I would prefer that the term "classic" is kept, the earth will likely continue to spin around its axis even if it is changed to something else 😊. But then it should be something that the group can agree on, I don't however see any consensus. > > /Ingemar > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sebastian Moeller<moeller0@gmx.de> >> Sent: den 6 november 2019 08:08 >> To: Ingemar Johansson S >> <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Michael.Scharf@hs- >> esslingen.de; 4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net >> Cc: Ingemar Johansson S<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>; tcpm@ietf.org; >> tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking >> >> Hi Ingmar, >> >> IMHO this is a slippery slope argument. Because if minor changes to the naming >> are "impossible" how will changed to the underlying concepts and methods be >> acceptable to you. Because surely these other organizations already committed >> to what is proposed to the IETF as an experiment? >> My gripe with the classic moniker is that this term is not outcome neutral. What >> I mean is, that while in itself not necessarily negative, it implies that the new kid >> on the block is the way into the future, while the classic version should head into >> it's well-deserved retirement. And on the facts this simply is not settled or >> accepted in the case of L4S. IMHO the testing published by the L4S/RITE folks >> always tested conditions that are very favorable to L4S and completely ignored >> to reach out to the actual user community interested in low latency under load. >> It might well be that the L4S approach might also do well in a true stress test (bi- >> directiomal saturation on a asymmetric path with bursty cross traffic for >> starters), but I would like to see numbers first. And the L4S sce back-off data >> posted to this list in the path seems to indicate that L4S still has open ends that >> IMHO need addressing (independent of whether 3GPP likes this or not). >> >> Best Regards >> Sebastian >> >> On November 6, 2019 7:12:39 AM GMT+01:00, Ingemar Johansson S >> <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> I would prefer that the term "Classic" is kept. >>> L4S is not anymore an IETF only matter. Work is ongoing to get support >>> for L4S in 3GPP for 5G and the input papers there use the term classic. >>> It is of course too late for changing classic to something else, but >>> then it is appreciated that It is something that the group can agree on >>> and I don't see that we are there, therefore it is better to stick to >>> "classic". >>> And to me the term "classic" does not sound negative. >>> >>> /Ingemar >>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 00:22:44 +0000 >>>> From: Bob Briscoe<ietf@bobbriscoe.net> >>>> To: "Scharf, Michael"<Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>, "Rodney W. >>>> Grimes"<4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> >>>> Cc: Wesley Eddy<wes@mti-systems.com>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" >>>> <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "tcpm@ietf.org"<tcpm@ietf.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking >>>> Message-ID:<7f1aa4ae-05d6-b07c-50b0-ab899c5c30b7@bobbriscoe.net> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> Michael, Rod, >>>> >>>> Altho non-L4S is a reasonable idea, I think it has more of a negative >>> connotation >>>> than classic. For instance, consider describing Android phones as >>> non-iPhones. >>>> Also, in the ecn-l4s-id draft, we introduce the possibility that some >>> operators >>>> might classify non-L4S traffic (DNS, VoIP, EF, NQB, etc) into the >>> same >>> queue as >>>> L4S traffic (and we say that in this case the queue would be called >>> the >>> Low >>>> Latency queue). This shows that the term non-L4S is not a good choice >>> for >>> a >>>> name, because the words it is made from already give it a meaning of >>> its >>> own >>>> that conflicts with the definition you want it to have in certain >>> contexts. >>>> For example, if you did define the name "non-iPhone" to mean phones >>> such >>> as >>>> Android, Windows, etc, then you would expect the phrase "non-iPhone >>> knock- >>>> off products" to mean "fake Android and Windows phones". However the >>>> constituent elements "non" and "iPhone" already have a meaning of >>> their >>> own, >>>> so in the context of this phrase, it means "fake iPhones", which is >>> the >>> opposite >>>> of what you wanted. >>>> >>>> The term Classic for the non-L4S service, its queue, its traffic, its >>> congestion >>>> control, etc. is defined in the terminology section of the drafts, so >>> I >>> think it's >>>> best to live with this - it's not a significant problem. Indeed, it >>> has >>> become widely >>>> used and widely understood since 2015, and changing it to non-L4S now >>> would >>>> cause unnecessary confusion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 04/11/2019 19:21, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>>>> I agree. ?non-L4S? may be even better. >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> *Von: *Rodney W. Grimes<mailto:4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> >>>>> *Gesendet: *Montag, 4. November 2019 20:17 >>>>> *An: *Scharf, Michael<mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de> >>>>> *Cc: *Bob Briscoe<mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net>; Wesley Eddy >>>>> <mailto:wes@mti-systems.com>; tsvwg@ietf.org >>> <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>; >>>>> tcpm@ietf.org<mailto:tcpm@ietf.org> >>>>> *Betreff: *Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking >>>>> >>>>>> You can e.g. use ?non-L4S-enabled TCP?. >>>>>> >>>>>> Terminology does matter to me given that I strongly disagree to >>> any >>>>> use of ?marketing language? when it comes to TCP. >>>>> >>>>> My concern here of use of terms like, legacy, classic, new, old is >>>>> that they are pretty much all of the relative from and thus >>> ambiguous >>>>> over time. >>>>> >>>>> newReno is new only relative to Reno, that is fairly clear, but if >>> I >>>>> said newTCP or oldTCP with what frame should the reference be >>>>> evaluated. >>>>> >>>>> I believe in the case of L4S the time invariant term would be, as >>>>> Michael suggests above, "non-L4S".?? Note that enabled for me is a >>>>> noise word in this context, and TCP may or may not be needed >>> depending >>>>> on context, but for literal replacement of Legacy or Classic >>> "non-L4S" >>>>> is invariant over time. >>>>> >>>>> Rod >>>>> >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Von: Bob Briscoe<mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net> >>>>>> Gesendet: Montag, 4. November 2019 19:09 >>>>>> An: Scharf, Michael<mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>; >>> Wesley >>>>> Eddy<mailto:wes@mti-systems.com>; >>>>> tsvwg@ietf.org<mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org> >>>>>> Cc: tcpm@ietf.org<mailto:tcpm@ietf.org> >>>>>> Betreff: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael, >>>>>> >>>>>> Previously, I have been told not to use the term standard for >>> RFCs >>>>> that are not standards. RFC5681 is 'only' a draft standard. This is >>>>> why, in the IETF at least, I avoid using the term "standard TCP >>>>> congestion control". I generally call it Reno when referring to the >>>>> congestion control. >>>>>> I have never, to my knowledge, used the term classic TCP, or >>> classic >>>>> TCP congestion control. >>>>>> And I rarely use the term legacy, and if I do I'm happy to have >>>>> alternatives suggested. >>>>>> I've checked the L4S drafts, and there is one phrase that I shall >>>>> leave in ecn-l4s-id: "the traditional TCP Reno additive increase", >>>>> because this is correctly used to mean the traditional increase (in >>>>> numerous AIMD CCs), not traditional TCP. There was one other >>>>> occurrence of "traditional TCP senders" in a whole para in an >>> appendix >>>>> that has just been deleted anyway. And in aqm-dualq-coupled there >>> was >>>>> one "legacy TCP flows" (changed to "Classic traffic" now in my >>> local >>>>> copy, using the defined term in all the L4S drafts). >>>>>> l4s-arch is getting a complete make-over for terminology, so I >>> will >>>>> check that next. >>>>>> inline... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/08/2019 15:01, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Wes, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I?d like to add a smaller item that is mostly editorial and can >>>>> hopefully be sorted just out by re-wording, albeit it may require a >>>>> careful analysis of all documents. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As already noted in >>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/zZkYZKF- >>>> hDvWO3I5MudwpNkKyH >>> Y<https://mailarchive..ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/zZkYZKF-hDvWO3I5MudwpNk >>>>> KyHY> , I object to the terms ?traditional TCP? and also ?classic >>> TCP? >>>>> or ?legacy? TCP when referring to a TCP implementation according to >>>>> IETF standards-track RFCs. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To me as a non-native native speaker, all these terms have a >>>>> negative connotation. I also think this language is typical to >>>>> marketing material. >>>>>> You're entitled to your opinion but, as a native speaker, I don't >>>>> think 'classic' or 'traditional' are particularly pejorative, tho >>> they >>>>> can be when used in a context that intends them to be. They also >>> mean >>>>> "stood the test of time". I find 'legacy' has a connotation of >>>>> marketing-speak, but it's not that bad. >>>>>> This is an enduring problem when trying to improve on the good >>> work >>>>> that other people have done before you (which is the context of >>>>> everything we are doing). We need a word that distinguishes the old >>>>> from the new, but we don't want to completely trash the thing that >>> has >>>>> already been successful, but had its day. >>>>>> Nonetheless, it is also important not to be too precious about >>> past >>>>> work. We all recognize that Reno TCP is unscalable and has >>> problems. >>>>> IMO, it is OK to describe technologies that have had their time >>> with >>>>> negative connotations. Indeed, you have been an author (with me) of >>> an >>>>> RFC on open issues in congestion control. >>>>>> I notice you haven't suggested an alternative term for "the >>> thing(s) >>>>> we are trying to improve on". Not surprising, because it's >>> difficult. >>>>>> When we (the L4S developers) were first looking for a term for >>> the >>>>> non-L4S queue and the non-L4S service, we didn't want to use >>> 'legacy' >>>>> for the above reasons, but we did want to imply pre-existing, so we >>>>> decided on 'classic', which we all felt had a generally neutral >>>>> connotation, but said what we meant. >>>>>> Finally, I do not want this issue to take up any time that would >>>>> detract from technical issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My prefered term when referring to TCP according to >>> standards-track >>>>> specification is ?standard TCP?. I would also be fine with other >>> terms >>>>> as long as they are neutral and make clear that experiments do not >>>>> replace, deprecate, or outperform standards. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Similarly, I think that term such as ?classic? is not appropriate >>>>> for the TCP standard congestion control (?Reno?). As of today, this >>> is >>>>> the TCP congestion control algorithm on standards track that has >>> IETF >>>>> consensus. The term in the TCPM charter is ?TCP standard congestion >>>>> control?. I also think that terms such as ?Reno-compatible? or the >>>>> like would be neutral. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that I do not object to the terms ?classic ECN?, ?legacy >>> ECN?, >>>>> ?legacy AQM? or the like, i.e., if the context is ECN and not >>>>> specifically TCP or the TCP congestion control. I believe it is up >>> to >>>>> the TSVWG do decide if this term shall be used for compliance to >>> RFC >>>>> 3168. I have no strong opinion on that. As far as I can see, most >>> use >>>>> of the term ?classic? is in this context and I don?t ask for >>> changes >>>>> in those cases. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Some use of the term ?Classic Service? may also require careful >>>>> review to clearly separate it from TCP Standard behavior. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that some use of the term ?Classic TCP? would probably also >>>>> apply to ?Classic QUIC? once the QUIC standard is finished. To me >>> as a >>>>> non-native speaker, it would be really strange to use the term >>>>> ?classic? in the context of a brand-new transport protocol. IMHO in >>>>> that case the term ?classic? would be even more confusing. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I also add the TCPM list in CC to ensure consistency. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael (with no hat) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Von: Wesley Eddy<mailto:wes@mti-systems.com> >>>>>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 11. August 2019 07:08 >>>>>> An: tsvwg@ietf.org<mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org> >>>>>> Betreff: [tsvwg] L4S status tracking >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I created tickets in the TSVWG "trac" tool in order to help keep >>>>>> track of the individual things that look like they should be >>>>>> addressed in progressing L4S document set: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/tsvwg/report/1?sort=ticket&asc=1&page=1 >>>>>> I'll try to update these based on the ongoing discussions, >>> updates, >>>>>> etc., but it will make it very easy if you happen to mention the >>>>>> ticket numbers or some key words in threads and messages, when >>>> significant. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> tcpm mailing list >>>>>> tcpm@ietf.org<mailto:tcpm@ietf.org> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >> ________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Bob Briscoe >>>>>> >>> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=9e3cf770-c2e8fb81-9e3cb7eb-864 >>>>>> 685b2085c-4ba6a1960c4f3e7a&q=1&e=bf49c0f0-380b-42d4-93a2- >>>> 9ebedff802e >>>>>> 0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbobbriscoe.net%2F >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> tcpm mailing list >>>>>> tcpm@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >>>>> -- >>>>> Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org >>>> -- >>>> >> ________________________________________________________________ >>>> Bob Briscoe >>> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=861241a8- >>>> dac64d59-86120133-864685b2085c-16120a27ab4a751a&q=1&e=bf49c0f0- >>>> 380b-42d4-93a2-9ebedff802e0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbobbriscoe.net%2F >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> >>> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tcpm/attachments/20191106/de7 >>> 97 >>>> fd1/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tcpm mailing list >>>> tcpm@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of tcpm Digest, Vol 187, Issue 15 >>>> ************************************* >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tcpm mailing list >> tcpm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Dave Taht
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael