Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes
"Scheffenegger, Richard" <rs@netapp.com> Thu, 11 November 2010 12:26 UTC
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:27:17 -0000
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Thread-Topic: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes
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From: "Scheffenegger, Richard" <rs@netapp.com>
To: Jerry Chu <hkchu@google.com>, Marco Mellia <mellia@tlc.polito.it>
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Cc: tmrg <tmrg-interest@icsi.berkeley.edu>, Mike Belshe <mbelshe@google.com>, tcpm <tcpm@ietf.org>, Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes
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Jerry, After some thoughts, I have the following summarization for me: Simulating small pipes is very tricky (concerns about timing effects of simulator, selection of queuing parameters which are realistic...) Traffic rarely comes in via 1GE, and drops down to a 64kbps bottleneck link. Only in the direction homeuser->webserver this huge bandwidth disparity might be encountered in a single step (but even then I doubt it). Web server traffic probably runs over a series of shrinking pipes (ie 10G/1G/OC12/OC3/T3/T1/64k) - so in the typical web server environment, even if each link has only small buffers, the server->homeuser direction will less likely show bad effects I would think. Which alignes with the data you presented at ICCSG, correct? Deploying IW10 with NewReno shows almost the same benefits as with Linux SACK (within 10% of the numbers shown). AFAIK, Linux Newreno is fairly standards-compatible (at least much more than Linux SACK). For the record, based on my comments regarding non-web traffic, I'm in support for this proposal, even though I think it should not be deployed just by itself. I would like to know if the pacing suggestion would make a difference for the opposition, as that would result in a natural limit of the burstiness and IW (even beyond 10)? Regards, Richard Scheffenegger > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Chu [mailto:hkchu@google.com] > Sent: Donnerstag, 11. November 2010 11:59 > To: Marco Mellia > Cc: tcpm; Mike Belshe; tmrg; Matt Mathis; Michael Welzl > Subject: Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Marco Mellia > <mellia@tlc.polito.it> wrote: > > > > > >>> I certainly won't object to this, if that's all it takes for > >>> standardization. Unfortunately the point for the non-convinced is > >>> they don't want ANY flows to use IW10 for fear of hurting the > >>> performance of their flows. > >> > >> ... but here, your "browsers open tens of flows" argument > totally holds. How is a web flow with IW10 worse than a > browser opening tens of flows? If people only use it for the > web, like Google has been successfully doing, this seems to > be quite safe, based on experience. > >> > >> I'm curious what the opposition says to this :) > > > > If today a brower opens 10 flows with a server using IW=1 > you gets 10 packets equivalent IW. > > Increasing the IW to 10 leads to an equivalent IW of 100 > packets. At that point, you DSL modem will definitively start > dropping most of them... > > But if we don't start thinking about how to scale these TCP > parameters, tomorrow (ok, maybe in a couple of years) when > browsers decide to open 20 or 30 flows because they are > frustrated with low TCP parameters like IW, it will > effectively be equivalent to increasing IW to 10 today. > So do we want to do nothing and leave it all to apps, or try > to take some control of some key TCP parameters back into TCP itself? > > Jerry > > > > > -- > > > > Ciao, /\/\/\rco > > > > +-----------------------------------+ > > | Marco Mellia - Assistant Professor| > > | Skypeid: mgmellia | > > | Tel: +39-011-564-4173 | > > | Cel: +39-340-9674888 | /"\ .. . . . . . . > . . . . . . > > | Politecnico di Torino | \ / . ASCII Ribbon > Campaign . > > | Corso Duca degli Abruzzi 24 | X .- NO HTML/RTF > in e-mail . > > | Torino - 10129 - Italy | / \ .- NO Word > docs in e-mail. > > | http://www.telematica.polito.it | .. . . . . . . > . . . . . . > > +-----------------------------------+ > > The box said "Requires Windows 95 or Better." So I installed Linux. > > > _______________________________________________ > tcpm mailing list > tcpm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm >
- [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes rick jones
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes rick jones
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Ilpo Järvinen
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Hagen Paul Pfeifer
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes SCHARF, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Michael Welzl
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Michael Welzl
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Lars Eggert
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Lars Eggert
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Marco Mellia
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Michael Welzl
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Michael Welzl
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Michael Welzl
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Lars Eggert
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… John Heffner
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes L.Wood
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Marco Mellia
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes L.Wood
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Marco Mellia
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Marco Mellia
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Marco Mellia
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes rick jones
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Lachlan Andrew
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Aki Nyrhinen
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Alexander Zimmermann
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Lachlan Andrew
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Lachlan Andrew
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes John Heffner
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Fred Baker
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… L.Wood
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Ilpo Järvinen
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Fred Baker
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Alexander Zimmermann
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Fred Baker
- Re: [tcpm] Increasing the Initial Window - Notes Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… David Borman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jakob Heitz
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… David Borman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jakob Heitz
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… David Borman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… David Borman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… David Borman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… John Heffner
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jakob Heitz
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jakob Heitz
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Aki Nyrhinen
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Xiangsong Cui
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Jerry Chu
- Re: [tcpm] [Tmrg] Increasing the Initial Window -… Andrew Yourtchenko