Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> Wed, 13 November 2019 10:00 UTC
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To: "Scharf, Michael" <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>, Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, "Rodney W. Grimes" <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>
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From: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:00:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking
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Michael, I see the problem. Nearly all the occurrences of 'Classic TCP' are in the appendix that was written v early on, when the focus was only TCP. That text was not written by me, and I haven't got round to editing it for consistency. However, there are 4 occurrences of "'Classic' TCP" in the abstract and intro, which I will also fix. Can you say which "David's proposal" you mean please? Bob On 11/11/2019 23:10, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > OK, so we seem to make some progress at least regarding the term > ‚classic‘ TCP. As mentioned before, I personally would find the term > ‘Classic’ QUIC very confusing and you cannot avoid that if you talk > about ‘Classic’ TCP, IMHO. So, it seems better to avoid that > terminology for all transport protocols. For the record, in > draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-08 the combination of the terms ‘classic’ > and ‘TCP’ back-to-back is used 11 times as far as I can see. > > Regarding congestion control, I’d like to emphasize that David’s > proposal would also work well for me, i.e., characterizing the > congestion control by functional properties. This avoids all issues > regarding whether something will supersede something else (including > the issue that EXP is just an experiment that won’t update or replace > any PS document). > > Michael > > *From:*Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> > *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2019 4:31 PM > *To:* Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>; Wesley Eddy > <wes@mti-systems.com>; Rodney W. Grimes <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> > *Cc:* tsvwg@ietf.org; tcpm@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking > > Michael, > > On 07/11/2019 08:11, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > … and just to show that _/my/_ concern would be trivial to address > by small editorial changes: > > For the abstract of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id, the wording “It > gives an incremental migration path so that normal TCP traffic > classified in the ‘Classic’ service of L4S will be no worse off” > would already work for me. It just takes a small editorial change > to make me happy. This can’t be so hard. > > Personally, I wonder if “classic” is indeed the best name for a > service class (and, e.g., “normal” sounds better to me), but in > the context of a service class, “classic” could actually work for > me, if TSVWG really wants that name with strong consensus. I don’t > care how about names for DiffSe^D^D^D^D^D^D traffic classifiers, > traffic policers/shapers, AQM schemes, or whatever else is done in > the fast path of a router to implement low latency service. > > I only object to specific terminology such as ‘Classic’ TCP or > ‘Classic’ congestion control because I don’t think that ‘classic’ > is a proper characterization for TCPM standards or TCP/IP stack > behavior not aligned with whatever L4S believes the bright future > shall be. > > I thought I had already agreed to remove 'TCP' from all instances of > 'Classic TCP traffic' etc, and that I hadn't intended to include 'TCP' > in the first place. Because it's the congestion controls that are > relevant in L4S drafts, not the protocols. > > > > Bob > > Whether such small rewording address fully the concerns from > others may be a different question. > > Michael > > *From:*Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com> <mailto:wes@mti-systems.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 6, 2019 8:54 PM > *To:* Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de> > <mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>; Bob Briscoe > <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> <mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net>; Rodney W. > Grimes <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <mailto:4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> > *Cc:* tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>; tcpm@ietf.org > <mailto:tcpm@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking > > On 11/6/2019 1:57 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > Bob, > > From draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-08: “It gives an incremental > migration path so that existing 'Classic' TCP traffic will be > no worse off” > > You are proposing an experiment. Not more than that. I will be > fine with the term “Classic” for TCP and TCPM-specified > congestion control when more than 50% of Internet traffic uses > that new technology. > > Until this happens, I insist that the word “Classic” must be > removed in all context of TCP and congestion control (as far > as it is owned by TCPM), including the reference above. BTW, > “normal” as suggested would also work for me. So, you have > plenty of options for other terms. > > If Dave+Michael's suggestion of replacing "classic" with "normal" > is agreable to others, this seems like a good way forward to me. > It should be easy enough to explain in other SDOs that classic and > normal mean the same thing, if this is a real issue. > > (FWIW, I've never had a problem myself with "classic", nor read > any negative connotations to it. However, for the sake of working > group progress, I think we just need to pick something that seems > the least terrible and agree to move on.) > > > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Dave Taht
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael