Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Hystart and delay jitter

Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> Mon, 22 March 2021 15:17 UTC

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From: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "ncardwell=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <ncardwell=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Hystart and delay jitter
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 15:17:05 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tcpm/m0x16vs0SVdQngRbHpL29KQ-4GE>
Subject: Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Hystart and delay jitter
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Sorry, I was confused and thought this was a comment on the Cubic work. Would be really good to mention and discuss this in HyStart++ draft. Happy to discuss more if needed!


´╗┐On 22.03.21, 16:12, "tcpm on behalf of Mirja Kuehlewind" <tcpm-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mirja.kuehlewind=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Yes, we also reported on some problems/bugs in HyStart in maprg two meetings back:

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-maprg-01/materials/slides-interim-2020-maprg-01-sessa-behavior-of-tcp-cubic-in-low-latency-mobile-radio-networks-00

    This problem, where Slow Start is left wrongly and much too early, is particularly bad in combination with the TCP friendly region in Cubic. However, the actually problems lies in HyStart which is not covered in the Cubic RFC/bis-draft.


    On 19.03.21, 10:16, "tcpm on behalf of Ingemar Johansson S" <tcpm-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

        Hi

        My finding is that it is a bit problematic to rely on RTT estimates for path
        capacity especially with cellular access . It was summarized in section 4 in
        https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-johansson-cc-for-4g-5g-02 and also
        presented in
        https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-iccrg-1.pdf

        Regards
        Ingemar

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: tcpm <tcpm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Praveen
        > Balasubramanian
        > Sent: den 18 mars 2021 23:37
        > To: ncardwell=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Christian Huitema
        > <huitema@huitema.net>
        > Cc: tcpm@ietf.org
        > Subject: Re: [tcpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: Hystart and delay jitter
        > 
        > Thanks Christian for the suggestions! We will include a discussion on
        jitter in
        > the next draft update and also experiment with the min of max function.
        > 
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: tcpm <tcpm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Neal Cardwell
        > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2021 2:18 PM
        > To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
        > Cc: tcpm@ietf.org Extensions <tcpm@ietf.org>
        > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [tcpm] Hystart and delay jitter
        > 
        > On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 4:29 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Back in November 2019, when adding Cubic and Hystart to my
        > > implementation of QUIC, I noticed that Hystart was sensitive to delay
        > > jitter. Hystart detects the buildup of queues by monitoring the RTT.
        > > Some links experience delay jitter, caused for example by access
        > > protocol for shared radio links or possibly by link-local ARQ protocols.
        > > The delay jitter can cause Hystart to make the wrong decision, in two
        ways:
        > >
        > > 1) Delay jitter during a previous period could cause some packets to
        > > be delivered "faster than usual", causing Hystart to under-estimate
        > > the min RTT for that period.
        > >
        > > 2) Delay jitter during the currently measured period can cause packets
        > > to be delivered "slower than usual",  causing Hystart to over-estimate
        > > the min RTT for that period.
        > >
        > > The combination of these two issues may cause Hystart to make the
        > > wrong decisions, and exit slow start at levels well below link capacity.
        > 
        > Yes, we have found in both our production experience and controlled
        > experiments that the Hystart-Delay algorithm is very susceptible to
        spurious
        > triggering from jitter, particularly in LTE and wifi paths.
        > 
        > We discussed this a bit in Spring 2017 in the comparison of BBR's
        bandwidth-
        > based mechanism for exiting startup, vs Hystart-Delay's delay-based
        > mechanism:
        >   https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=6c35f204-33aecb47-6c35b29f-
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        > 
        > > The draft-ietf-tcpm-hystartplusplus-01 does have some protection
        > > against the second issue, because currentRoundMinRTT is computed on at
        > > least N_RTT_SAMPLE. If that number is large enough, computing the min
        > > over N samples should filter out "slower than usual" anomalies.
        > > However, the draft does not include a protection against "faster than
        > usual"
        > > anomalies happening in the previous period. In my implementation, I
        > > protected against that by computing a "min of max" function: compute a
        > > rolling "MAX over N_RTT_SAMPLE", then compute the MIN value of that
        > > during the reference period, and use that to set the reference value
        > > "lastRoundMinRTT".
        > >
        > > I think it would be good to add a discussion of the effect of jitter
        > > to the hystart++ draft. In addition, we may also want to mention
        > > timestamps. The jitter on RTT may be caused by jitter on either
        > > direction of transmission -- data path or ACK path. The effect of
        > > jitter on the ACK path can be minimized if time stamps can be used to
        > > monitor the variation of one-way delays. This is not discussed in the
        > > current draft. Maybe it should be.
        > 
        > A discussion of the effect of jitter sounds like a great idea.
        > 
        > neal
        > 
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