RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend?
"Mitesh Dalal (mdalal)" <mdalal@cisco.com> Mon, 01 October 2007 21:55 UTC
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Subject: RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend?
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:55:24 -0700
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Thread-Topic: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend?
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From: "Mitesh Dalal (mdalal)" <mdalal@cisco.com>
To: "Edward A. Gardner" <eag@ophidian.com>, tcpm@ietf.org
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well said Edward! I concur with your take on this and was alluding to the same ideas that you mentioned below. To highlight your comment again: > In particular > there is confusion between discussing whether implementing > tcpsecure itself is mandatory / recommended / optional vs. > whether some feature of tcpsecure is mandatory / recommended > / optional, given that tcpsecure itself is implemented. I think it does captures the debate we are having here. My opinion is that if we view these changes as Updates to RFC793, then they may be perceived as mandatory changes and again open discussions around IPR, MAY/SHOULD/MUST language and so on. However if we have a banner statement stating that implementing these changes are recommended/optional and enumerate situations in which they are helpful this should alleviate a lot of opposing view. And once we have this statement and if a tcp implementation does decide to have this feature then it MUST be this way for the feature to work correctly. So to reiterate to the group, we need an applicability statement that highlights the implementations/deployments/applications that are RECOMMENDED to have this fix, with others being OPTIONAL. However, the features/changes themselves being MUST (or SHOULD, if that's what it would take for a consensus). Is the group in agreement here? my 0.02 Mitesh > -----Original Message----- > From: Edward A. Gardner [mailto:eag@ophidian.com] > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:16 AM > To: tcpm@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? > > I normally just lurk here silently, and I certainly wasn't at > Chicago or any of the other meetings discussing this. But it > strikes me that people are getting caught up in language > problems and losing sight of what is desired. In particular > there is confusion between discussing whether implementing > tcpsecure itself is mandatory / recommended / optional vs. > whether some feature of tcpsecure is mandatory / recommended > / optional, given that tcpsecure itself is implemented. > > Clearly there will be implementations that do not implement > tcpsecure. Historical implementations. Those that achieve > similar ends through different means (e.g. IPSEC, MD5) and > therefore have no need or use for tcpsecure. > > Clearly there are implementations that need or want > tcpsecure, BGP being the prominent example. > > So there are two implementation variations that we consider > necessary. Is there any need or point in more? Remember > that compatibility problems, testing, etc. scale as (at > least) NxN. There is enormous practical incentive to > minimize the number of variations that are implemented and deployed. > > I contend that the specifications or RFCs should allow > exactly two variations. Those implementations that ignore > and do not implement tcpsecure at all. And those that > implement all of it. > > I think the way to accomplish that is to include an > applicability statement saying that implementing tcpsecure is > optional. An implementation MAY or MAY NOT implement it. > And giving guidance on when one should or should not. > Probably something along the lines of saying one should > implement it unless the same ends are accomplished by other > means, and giving several examples of other means. > > But if an implementation does choose to implement tcpsecure, > then it MUST implement all of it -- the features, protocol > behavior, etc. are described in the RFC using MUST. > Conversely, if an implementation chooses not to implement > tcpsecure, then it MUST NOT implement any part of it. Either > implement all of tcpsecure or none of it. Yes, this requires > careful phrasing, but it can be done. > > > I am assuming that all the features included in tcpsecure are > considered necessary or desirable for BGP. If any are not, > shouldn't they be excluded on the grounds that no one is ever > likely to implement them? > > One might contemplate the impact of the IETF requirement for > independently developed, interoperable implementations. The > three tcpsecure (three choices of MAY vs. SHOULD that are > being discussed) interact to some degree. If each are > described using MAY or SHOULD, we get eight implementation > variations. Each needing two independent implementations > means at least sixteen implementation, which is absurd. Does > anyone really want to allow some arguably ill-informed > implementors to pick and choose, as opposed to saying all or > none? Isn't it our responsibility as architects (who claim > to know what we are doing :-) to minimize variations, not > unnecessarily expand them? > > Caveat: my primary experience is with the T10 and T11 > standards (SCSI and friends), I apologize for my errors with > IETF terminology and practice. > > Dropping back into my hole to resume lurking. > > > Edward A. Gardner eag at ophidian dot com > Ophidian Designs 719 593-8866 > 1262 Hofstead Terrace > Colorado Springs, CO 80907 > > > > _______________________________________________ > tcpm mailing list > tcpm@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm > _______________________________________________ tcpm mailing list tcpm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
- [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Fernando Gont
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Pekka Savola
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Agarwal, Anil
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? David Borman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Lars Eggert
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Agarwal, Anil
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Ted Faber
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Tom Petch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mitesh Dalal (mdalal)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Tim Shepard
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Tim Shepard
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? toby.moncaster
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- [tcpm] BTNS usage for BGP Pekka Savola
- [tcpm] Re: BTNS usage for BGP Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mitesh Dalal (mdalal)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mark Allman
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Edward A. Gardner
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Mitesh Dalal (mdalal)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Lars Eggert
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- RE: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Ted Faber
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Ted Faber
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Ted Faber
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Ted Faber
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Ted Faber
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Ted Faber
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] tcpsecure: how strong to recommend? Joe Touch