Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Sat, 27 February 2021 05:18 UTC
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To: Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00
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The ingress classifier for SFC can clearly be a PE router. In fact, that is a typical case. I would also expect for most tunnel technologies including Geneve that the ingress tunnel rotuer can be a PE. Yours, Joel On 2/26/2021 11:59 PM, Shunsuke Homma wrote: > I'm wondering if CE/PE can cover all cases. > > For example, can SFC CF/SFF (ref. RFC 7665) or Geneve tunnel > endpoint/NVE (ref. RFC8926) put the internal of a provider network be > an endpoint of IETF network slice? And if so, can we call them CE or PE? > > Regards, > > Shunsuke > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 9:43 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com > <mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > This is an interesting discussion. > > I understand their is a paradigm shift with Enhanced VPN network > slicing framework, however I think as John and Eric stated and I > agree with their proposed update that “CE” replace “Network slice > endpoint” and PE replace “Network Slice Realization Endpoint”. > > From an industry perspective from an operators point of view, I > can see that maybe the Network slicing paradigm shift is being > driven by 5G which has its key constructs of XHaul front back and > mid haul vRAN and the mobile handset UE 3GPP user data plane and how > much the CE is now aware of the underlay. > > As Adrian pointed out the CE based VPN versus PE based VPNs and the > trade off for operators with CE based VPNs and how much knowledge > are operators willing to give their customers about the underlay. > > As we all know that even though 5G is the industry driver of network > slicing, the framework of network slicing as far as degree of > isolation and steering is all based on the very overlay VPN concept > now enhanced VPN+ to provide an improved user or SLA experience. > So the concept of network slicing underpinned of overlay VPN with > underlay resources and steering can be used for any use case with > requirements of a higher grade SLA and not just 5G , such as DETNET > or any content provider video streaming service offering or any > service requiring a higher degree of isolation. > > Their are definitely trade off from an economics and value added > service and ROI perspective for CE versus PE based VPNs. > > Another point noted in this thread which I think is important and > that is “confusion” related to changing the historical PE / CE > terminology. > > That being said I do agree with John and Eric on their proposed change. > > > > Kind Regards > > Gyan > > > On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 2:14 AM Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com > <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>> wrote: > > Hi, ____ > > __ __ > > Indeed good discussion about the terms, and thanks to Adrian for > the explanation and summary of the PE-based and CE-based VPNs. ____ > > __ __ > > In the two figures provided in [1], the realization of IETF > network slice in both the service layer and the tunnel layer are > the same, the only difference is the position the NSE > represents.____ > > __ __ > > Thus I also support the proposal of using the well-known terms > CE/PE to describe the endpoints of IETF network slice. This > could help to reduce the possible confusions caused by using one > term to represent different positions. This could also help to > understand the mapping from IETF network slice requirements to > its realization, which could be based on the architecture and > technologies described in the enhanced VPN draft [3].____ > > __ __ > > Best regards,____ > > Jie____ > > __ __ > > *From:*Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Adrian Farrel > *Sent:* Thursday, February 25, 2021 6:52 PM > *To:* 'Young Lee' <younglee.tx@gmail.com > <mailto:younglee.tx@gmail.com>>; 'Luis M. Contreras' > <contreras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>> > *Cc:* 'Joel M. Halpern' <jmh@joelhalpern.com > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>; teas@ietf.org > <mailto:teas@ietf.org>; 'Eric Gray' <ewgray2k@gmail.com > <mailto:ewgray2k@gmail.com>>; 'John E Drake' > <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>; 'Rokui, Reza (Nokia - > CA/Ottawa)' <reza.rokui@nokia.com > <mailto:reza.rokui@nokia.com>>; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00____ > > __ __ > > Hi all, ____ > > __ __ > > Good thread, and really good to see the debate on the WG list.____ > > __ __ > > I’m piling in in response to Young, mainly because that’s the > email I happen to have open. But also because the perspective of > Young and Luis should be valuable to us in this context.____ > > __ __ > > While I think that the usage of “CE” and “PE” has a long history > in packet networks, I don’t believe the concepts are firmly > linked only to packet. They are pretty much what they call > themselves: the PE is at the edge of the “provider” == > “underlay” network, and the CE is at the edge of the “consumer” > == “overlay” network. ____ > > __ __ > > I find that, as the discussion continues, we are still missing a > really clear figure to help us talk about what we are > describing. But Reza’s [1] is a much better start than anything > previous. Here I see the classic distinction between a CE-based > VPN and a PE-based VPN [2], but we have to ask ourselves > carefully whether we **really** want the CE-based approach in > our network slicing:____ > > __-__What are the considerations for how much knowledge of the > underlay network has to be shared to the CE?____ > > __-__What are the considerations for how an underlay > distinguishes CE-originated slicing traffic?____ > > These are pretty much the same questions that CE-based VPNs have > to answer. Of course, the concept of a “provider-managed CE” > muddies these waters somewhat.____ > > __ __ > > Conversely, the port-based PE-based VPN has none of these > problems, but does have to agree on the “Access Connection” > encoding, and that is either payload-sensitive (like in PWE3) or > technology-aware (like in L3VPN).____ > > __ __ > > But my opinion of all of this is coloured by thinking about > enhanced VPNs (VPN+) [3] and IETF network slices as the same > thing.____ > > __ __ > > I also think that Luis’ point about contiguous or stitched > segments is important. There are, I think, two cases to be > considered:____ > > 1. The multi-domain IETF network slice. Here the problem is > very much the same as the multi-AS L3VPN. We have to > consider how the “service request” is mapped from one domain > to another. But it may help to recall that, for all our > dreaming, end-to-end multi-AS MPLS-TE tunnels are not much > of a thing: domains don’t like sharing information about or > control of their network resources. Thus the “E-NNI” between > slice domains may be as much of a service interface as the > “UNI” between consumer and provider.____ > 2. The 5G architecture considers stitching slices from > different technology networks to provide an end-to-end > slice. From a consumer’s point of view, this is exactly what > happens, but it is not clear to me whether this is really > what happens in a deployment. Surely there is aggregation as > we go down the technology layers and into the “transport” > networks. That is, there may be very, very many micro slices > in the RAN, but as this moves onto the IP transport, it is > likely that the slicing is aggregated. That means that the > stitching of slices actually follows a hierarchical model > with recursion. The interface between slice domains is the > “UNI”.____ > > __ __ > > Net-net, I like John’s original proposal. I hope we can take > that as our base point and factor in further discussions.____ > > __ __ > > Best,____ > > Adrian____ > > __ __ > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQdDqn8/ > <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQdDqn8/>____ > > [2] RFC 4026____ > > [3] draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn____ > > __ __ > > *From:*Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *Young Lee > *Sent:* 24 February 2021 10:22 > *To:* Luis M. Contreras <contreras.ietf@gmail.com > <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>> > *Cc:* Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com > <mailto:reza.rokui@nokia.com>>; teas@ietf.org > <mailto:teas@ietf.org>; Eric Gray <ewgray2k@gmail.com > <mailto:ewgray2k@gmail.com>>; John E Drake > <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>; Joel M. Halpern > <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>; > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00____ > > __ __ > > Hi,____ > > __ __ > > This is an interesting discussion. I am now in the mobile side > and reconginize that there are a number of scenarios that may > need transport network slices (which is now called IETF network > slices). For instance, possibly slices may be needed in the > fronthaul, midhaul and backhaul as well as within DC networks > that host the functions. Other than backhaul networks, the terms > CE and PE may not be adequate because for the aforementioned > transport networks except the backhaul, CE and PE terminology > would not easily apply. For each of the aforementioned transport > subnetworks, I think using slice endpoints makes more sense. ____ > > __ __ > > In other words, I agree with Luis on this point. ____ > > __ __ > > My two cents,____ > > Young ____ > > __ __ > > 2021년2월24일(수) 오후7:00, Luis M. Contreras > <contreras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>>님이 > 작성:____ > > Thanks Med and Joel for the answers.____ > > __ __ > > Noting what you said, and assuming that we are covering not > only IP/MPLS technologies, probably we need to associate the > same idea of CE and PE to technologies where those roles are > not commonly associated, such as OTN, DWDM or wireless / > microwave, since all of them can be potential targets of the > IETF Network Slicing realization. Then, if we follow this > same rationale and finally the WG decides to go in this > direction, I guess we need to span the CE and PE conception > also to those, maybe explaining this in the definitions > draft. Am I right?____ > > __ __ > > Med, when I was referring to IETF Network Slice of > technology X or Y I was thinking on the realization. So my > point here is that in case you have an IETF Network Slice > let's say realized as IP/MPLS, and another one let's say > realized on OTN or DWDM, where the IP/MPLS slice is > supported by the OTN/DWDM slice, can we consider that the CE > is IP/MPLS and the PE is OTN/DWDM? It sounds strange to me.____ > > __ __ > > Best regards____ > > __ __ > > Luis____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > El mié, 24 feb 2021 a las 7:16, > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>> escribió:____ > > Hi Luis, ____ > > ____ > > Actually, this is all about recursion, service > decomposition and manipulating customer/provider ROLES. > In all cases, there are reference points delimiting the > scope of the slice from both the customer view (we call > them, customer edges) and provider view (provider > edges). ____ > > ____ > > Nothing prevents that at the realization stage, two PEs > can’t be connected. I’m thinking about the example where > inter-AS VPN can be used to implement an IETF network > slice.____ > > ____ > > BTW, can you please clarify what do you mean by a “IETF > Network Slice of technology X or Y” as slice is > technology-agnostic? Thank you.____ > > ____ > > Cheers,____ > > Med____ > > ____ > > *De :*Luis M. Contreras [mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com > <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>] > *Envoyé :* mardi 23 février 2021 23:46 > *À :* Eric Gray <ewgray2k@gmail.com > <mailto:ewgray2k@gmail.com>> > *Cc :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>; Rokui, Reza > (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com > <mailto:reza.rokui@nokia.com>>; John E Drake > <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>; teas@ietf.org > <mailto:teas@ietf.org>; Joel M. Halpern > <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> > *Objet :* Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00____ > > ____ > > Hi all,____ > > ____ > > Regarding the CE / PE discussion, I have doubts if this > would apply to scenarios where we could have > stitching of IETF Network Slices or in scenarios where > an IETF Network Slice of technology X is supported on > IETF Network Slice of technology Y. While end-point can > work in all the cases, I think that CE / PE don't become > naturally applicable in all cases.____ > > ____ > > Respect to the discussion on IETF Network Slice Service, > I think it is redundant since we are talking of > consumer/customer and provider in the context of IETF > Network Slice, so being "Service" redundant there. > Probably adds more confusion than clarification.____ > > ____ > > Best regards____ > > ____ > > Luis____ > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas> > > -- > > <http://www.verizon.com/> > > *Gyan Mishra* > > /Network Solutions A//rchitect / > > /M 301 502-1347 > 13101 Columbia Pike > /Silver Spring, MD > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas> >
- [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… tom petch
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Eric Gray
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Young Lee
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Young Lee
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Ogaki, Kenichi
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Krzysztof Szarkowicz
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Krzysztof Szarkowicz
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair