Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Fri, 12 February 2021 14:43 UTC
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To: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <reza.rokui@nokia.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
References: <cc3949a4-1e60-7f77-45bd-2470be67d9d5@joelhalpern.com> <022001d6fc0e$4facba70$ef062f50$@olddog.co.uk> <86EF8667-4A3F-463A-BA3E-FE74F4875772@nokia.com> <MN2PR05MB6623EAA3DD2499C095311CDFC78D9@MN2PR05MB6623.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <61180F49-A511-458A-B6AA-96E4C3BBA0A1@nokia.com> <56d8b5c3-5a94-ec85-2950-cadb18676ebd@joelhalpern.com> <83CF461D-A00B-45B0-BC90-6059ECDA9F95@nokia.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00
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Reza, I looked at that paper. I do not see anything in there that addresses the inconsistency I am calling out below. Yours, Joel On 2/12/2021 9:09 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: > Joel, > > There are some discussions on this topic for 5G for example. See the > following draft: > > * draft-geng-teas-network-slice-mapping-02 > > Reza > > On 2021-02-10, 12:41 PM, "Joel Halpern Direct" > <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > > In every case I know of (which is I grant not every case) the non-IP > > packet is still a packet. It is generally delivered to the service > > provider as an Ethernet packet (since that is the only other kind of > > packet we actually deal with.) > > I do not know of any operator who trusts his customer to put an MPLS > > label on a packet which the operator will use for switching. (The > > closest I know of is when the operator actually controls the CPE. > Which > > is clearly not what you are describing.) > > If you have another use case in mind, it would be very helpful if you > > would explain it in more detail. > > Yours, > > Joel > > On 2/10/2021 11:42 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > > See inline please. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Reza > > > > > > *From: *John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> > > > *Date: *Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 11:21 AM > > > *To: *Reza Rokui <reza.rokui@nokia.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" > > > <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "'Joel M. Halpern'" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, > > > "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org> > > > *Subject: *RE: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in > > > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00 > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Comment inline > > > > > > Yours Irrespectively, > > > > > > John > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > > > *From:* Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Rokui, Reza > (Nokia > > > - CA/Ottawa) > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 10, 2021 7:39 AM > > > *To:* adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Joel M. Halpern' <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; > > > teas@ietf.org > > > *Cc:* Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in > > > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00 > > > > > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > > > > > Joel and Adrian, > > > > > > Agreed that there shall be clarity about the endpoints. > > > > > > >>>>>> There are traffic endpoints (the sender and > > > receiver of packets), and there are endpoints of the service (the > > > ingress and egress to the slice). > > > > > > This is correct Adrian. > > > > > > An “IETF network slice” is between two or more endpoints as > outlined in > > > the draft. > > > > > > In summary, the IETF network slice is defined between various > > > device/applications/network functions on multiple “IETF network > slice > > > endpoints”. These are traffic endpoints of the IETF network > slice. We > > > refer to them in the draft as “NSE” (IETF Network Slice Endpoints). > > > > > > In addition , as Adrian mentioned there are endpoints to the > realization > > > of the transport slice (i.e. various services/tunnels/paths). I am > > > suggesting to use term “NSI” (IETF Network Slice Ingress). Please > > > provide your suggestions for NSI if you have any other suggestions. > > > > > > >>>> For example, if the service is being > > > > > > delivered with MPLS, the Network Slice Endpoint likely > cannot put the > > > > > > labels on the packet for the MPLS, as it is outside of the IETF > > > network > > > > > > Slice. So we will need yet another layer of classification, > and yet > > > > > > more interworking. > > > > > > This is not correct. Whatever technology is used to realize the > IETF > > > network slice must be supported by endpoints. If MPLS is > technology of > > > choice, the endpoint must support it in its data-path (and might > also > > > support it in its control-plane). > > > > > > *//* > > > > > > */[JD] This is incorrect. E.g., in IETF VPNs, the traffic from > the CE > > > to the PE is *not* MPLS encapsulated. It is the PE that does the > > > encapsulation./* > > > > > > [Reza] Disagree. There are use-cases where the traffic to transport > > > network is not IP and is Labeled-packets. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Reza > > > > > > ------------------Original Message----------------------- > > > > > > On 2021-02-05, 5:29 PM, "Teas on behalf of Adrian Farrel" > > > <teas-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of adrian@olddog.co.uk > > > > <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org%20on%20behalf%20of%20adrian@olddog.co.uk>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Ah, the old "endpoint" discussion. > > > > > > Yes, Joel is right, we need to disambiguate endpoints from > endpoints. > > > > > > There are traffic endpoints (the sender and receiver of > packets), > > > and there > > > > > > are endpoints of the service (the ingress and egress to the > slice). > > > > > > There is probably a risk that we get sucked in to the wider 5G > > > picture, but > > > > > > we need to focus (as Joel says) on the IETF network slice. > > > > > > I suggest "source/destination" and "IETF network slice > ingress/egress". > > > > > > And we can avoid discussion of the wider 5G context, as noted > > > elsewhere in > > > > > > the draft, by diverting that material into a dedicated document. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Adrian > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> > > > On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > > > > > Sent: 05 February 2021 17:04 > > > > > > To: teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> > > > > > > Subject: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in > > > > > > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00 > > > > > > Rereading this draft, I realized that I am either confused by or > > > > > > disagree with the description of the "Network Slice Endpoint" > > > contianed > > > > > > there. > > > > > > The endpoint that I think matters is the place where the > IETF Network > > > > > > Slice Controller starts controlling the QoS and traffic > delivery. The > > > > > > Controller doesn't care about the identity of the device > outside of > > > that. > > > > > > Figure 1 in section 4.2 seems to define that endpoint as the > network > > > > > > slice realiation endpoint, and describes the network slice > endpoint as > > > > > > the thing outside the IetF network slice. This seems > > > counter-productive > > > > > > to me. It complicates teh relationship between the endpoitn > and the > > > > > > service being abstracted. For example, if the service is beign > > > > > > delivered with MPLS, the Network Slice Endpoint likely can > not put the > > > > > > labels on the packet for the MPLS, as it is outside of the IETF > > > network > > > > > > Slice. So we will need yet another layer of classification, > and yet > > > > > > more interworking. > > > > > > Further, someone has to get the queueing right for traffic > coming > > > out of > > > > > > the Network Slice Endpoint. But it is not part of the IETF > Network > > > > > > Slice, so we don't have any way to get it right. > > > > > > If we define the edge of the space we care about co-incident > with the > > > > > > edge of the space we influence, things get a lot cleaner. > > > > > > Yours, > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Teas mailing list > > > > > > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Teas mailing list > > > > > > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Teas mailing list > > > Teas@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >
- [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… tom petch
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Eric Gray
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Young Lee
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Young Lee
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Ogaki, Kenichi
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Krzysztof Szarkowicz
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Krzysztof Szarkowicz
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair