Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and resolution
Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> Mon, 27 April 2020 21:23 UTC
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 14:22:50 -0700
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To: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and resolution
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Dear Joel, thank you for bringing the matter of "isolation" to the discussion. I agree, that it is not practical to expect physical isolation in modern networks. In my view, a transport slice that requires isolation is as a transport connection that expects to receive data only from the specific domain and not from any other domain. In other words, I view isolation as the absence of mis-connectivity (in transport network interpretation which differentiates between path continuity check and connectivity verification). If my interpretation is acceptable, then isolation can be monitored using connectivity verification OAM mechanism(s). I much appreciate your thoughts, opinion on the proposed interpretation of isolation on transport slice. Regards, Greg On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:57 AM Joel Halpern Direct < jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > Trimmed, in line. > Joel > > On 4/26/2020 11:08 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > > > Please see some replies inline: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > >> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 10:52 AM > >> To: Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com>; teas@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation > and > >> resolution > >> > ... > >> More importantly, it is not something the customer has any way to > verify. > >> There is no test a customer can run that will verify this. > >> Making unverifiable promises is rarely a useful thing to do. > > > > Totally agree that tools for verification is important. As mentioned in > Haomian's mail, isolation can be verified with suitable tools which can be > used to collect the information at the necessary places with a suitable > interval. And it is important that customers can be provided with such > tools to monitor the performance and be informed of SLA violation. > > As far as I can tell, the observable that you describe is latency > variation (or maybe loss). Fine, describe the SLO in terms of latency > variation (or loss). Given that there are always imperfections in the > system, the customer may think that the issue is isolation. But what he > can observe, and as far as I can tell what he cares about, is delay > variation, loss, or other factors that affect his traffic. > > To use a different example, I have learned from the advocates to hate > bufferbloat. But even their tests measure delay, delay variation, etc. > They then infer the presence of large buffers. But in fact, if the > large buffers are present but never used, we would all be happy. So the > SLO on this would be in terms of latency, latency variation, loss, etc. > Not bufferbloat.` > > Yours, > Joel > > > > > Best regards, > > Jie > > > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> PS: Note that I understand that operators get asked for odd things mby > >> customers. But if we are going to define standards to support it, we > need to > >> understand the actual need. > >> > >> On 4/25/2020 10:44 PM, Zhenghaomian wrote: > >>> Not sure if I understand your question correctly. > >>> Well, it's reasonable for people to request hard isolation because 'I > don't want > >> my data to be transported together with other people's data'. > >>> For delivery this can be achieved by separating physical > devices/connections, > >> which are visible to users. For example dedicated boxes and fibers will > guarantee > >> the user's data is not mixed with others... > >>> > >>> Best wishes, > >>> Haomian > >>> > >>> -----邮件原件----- > >>> 发件人: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] > >>> 发送时间: 2020年4月26日 10:34 > >>> 收件人: Zhenghaomian <zhenghaomian@huawei.com>; teas@ietf.org > >>> 主题: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - isolation and > >>> resolution > >>> > >>> (trimmed) > >>> What is the user perceivable effect that the user is asking for when > you say "if > >> the user requests isolation"? > >>> > >>> Yours, > >>> Joel > >>> > >>> On 4/25/2020 10:31 PM, Zhenghaomian wrote: > >>>> Hi, Kiran, Joel, > >>>> > >>> ... > >>>> BTW, regarding the isolation, I don't see the necessity to argue > whether it > >> should be in SLO or not. The isolation itself, can either be requested > by the user > >> of the transport slice (then from NBI of TSC) to express the demand of > reliability, > >> or be offered by the provider of the transport slice (then from the SBI > of TSC) to > >> achieve the SLO requested from the user. In other words, if the user > requests > >> certain level of isolation in an SLO, such isolation should be > provided; if the user > >> does not request certain level of isolation (no isolation request in > SLO), then > >> there may be some isolation provided to satisfy the user's request. > >>>> > >>>> Best wishes, > >>>> Haomian > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >
- [Teas] Network Slicing design team definitions - … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- [Teas] 答复: Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Igor Bryskin
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… David Sinicrope
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Zhenghaomian
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Igor Bryskin
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Teas] Network Slicing design team definition… Joel M. Halpern