Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt
Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> Thu, 13 August 2020 20:49 UTC
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:38 -0700
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, "teas-ns-dt@ietf.org" <teas-ns-dt@ietf.org>, draft-mirsky-ippm-epm@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt
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Dear Joel, Kiran, et al., I want to bring to your attention a draft that we've submitted right before IETF-108 - Error Performance Measurement in Packet-switched Networks <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-ippm-epm/>. As part of defining metrics of EPM, the document specifies the method to detect and measure availability and unavailability. I hope you'll be interested and much appreciate your comments, including the IPPM WG list <ippm@ietf.org>. Regards, Greg On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > Comments in-line, marked <jmh></jmh>. > I still have some substantive concerns. > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/20/2020 6:53 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > My apologies, I could not reply sooner. Many thanks for paying attention > to the document and reviewing it. > > Please see inline. > > Cheers > > Kiran > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel Halpern > >> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2020 9:00 PM > >> To: teas@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > >> > >> My thanks to the design team for the update to this document. It is > much > >> improved. > >> > >> I a unable to understand the third paragraph of section 4.1.2. I do > not know > >> what maximum occupancy refers to. It seems to be talking about some > kind of > >> notion of objectives applying to subsets of traffic within a slice. > But I can't tell. > >> > > [KM] Maximum occupancy implies that when transport slice will 'max out' > or overall limit on the slice after which it becomes best effort (may not > meet its SLOs). For example, a slice can support 20 flows each with 10 Mbps > data rate but 21st flow may or may not get desired bandwidth and it is not > an SLO violation. There could be different kinds of limits using objectives > such as number of flows, total bandwidth, or may also be other things that > a user could ask for such as, max number of addresses, nf instances, etc > (this part is coming from NF related resources). This is important for both > network operators and transport slice controllers to plan resource > allocations better. > > <jmh>I am having real trouble understanding what you want to accomplish > with this maximum occupancy. The example you give is 20 flows of 10 > Mbps each. However, there is no parameter given taht is bps/flow. And > I would hope that there would not be. How the customer divides his > bandwidth up among his own traffic is up to him. Bandwidth as a total > does not have an "occupancy". The service is guarnateed up to the > stated bandwidth. If you can justify a "number of flows" SLO, then we > can have that, although from where I sit I can not see why any slice > service would operate in those terms. Many years experience with > Internet Scaling has taught us that core scaling that is based on number > of flows will fail. </jmh> > > > > >> Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears to be trying > to be > >> informative rather than normative. However, the last paragraph of > introduces > >> things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that are not described in the > rest of > >> the document, and do not actually seem to me to be appropriate. I > wowuld ask > >> that the last paragraph of section A.1 be stricken. > > > > [KM] Actually, we are saying these are 'not' SLOs and the customer may > have specific asks (optionally). Examples in this paragraph help in > clarifying meanings of isolations, linking with VPN+ and may also be input > to NBI. Considering this could be our top-level document, we/I prefer to > provide some linkage to later documents. An upshot of doing this is we will > not have to repeat the discussions we had - since it is already agreed upon > and can be referred to. > > <jmh> Given the way the document defines SLOs, if these are parameters > the customer can request, and may want to monitor, then they are SLOs. > If they are SLOs, they should not be hidden in an appendix. > And if this is for framing other discussion, I would have thought that > was the job of the framework document, not the definitions document. > And no, I do not think the examples help clarify the meaning of > "isolation". And no, I do not agree with the text. So no, it is not > "already agreed". </jmh> > > >> > >> Some minor comments: > >> > >> At one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as the contract > 5that > >> describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing them. Then in > section > >> 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA". Believe you mean "form > the > >> objective portion of the SLA" or "contribute to the SLA" > >> or something, since the contractual and consequence aspects of the SLA > are > >> outside of the SLOs? > > [KM] Yes, that is correct. We should add this statement ( contractual > aspects of the SLAS are outside the scope) to improve the text. > >> > >> Given that availability is defined in terms of the other SLOs (quite > >> reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly measurable), it > seems > >> that availability should itself be considered indirectly measurable? > >> > > [KM] Since we define it as "uptime to total_time", it is measurable, > however that may be. > <jmh> Since I consider this minor, I will not insist on it. But as far > as I can tell, you can't measure uptime. You measure whether other SLO > parameters are met, and then calculate what portion of the time any of > them were out of spec. That sounds like an indirect measurement to > me.</jmh> > > > > >> nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an initial > list, there is no > >> need to include a bullet in the aspects that says "Other objectives > could be > >> specified". It is true. But has already been stated above. > > > > [KM] :-) It is there to separate measurable vs non-measurable asks. If > the nsdt agrees, I don't mind removing the sub-heading. > > > >> In section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text seems to say > that an > >> endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, P2MP, ...). > >> It seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both P2P and P2MP > >> communication. It seems rather odd to have to consider it to be two > TSEs. > >> From later text, it is the slice, not the endpoint, which as a > particular > >> connectivity type. > > > > [KM] Agree. It is not supposed to imply 2 TSEs. If I understood > correctly, you think 'MP2MP' does not make sense. Am I right? If yes, then > at least I was thinking of direction of the traffic flow. i.e., traffic > could flow out to different TSEs or flow in from different TSE sources. We > will discuss how to improve the text - add explanation or remove MP2MP. > <jmh>I was not commenting on whether there is an MP2MP service. I was > commenting on the fact that the text seems to assign types to the TSEs > rather than to the slice. Given that you agree that one should not need > two TSEs, please remove the text that says that TSEs have a type (Pt2Pt, > Pt2MPT, ...) </jmh> > > > > >> > >> I wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" is useful? > Given that > >> many things are in both the sample TSE list and the sample TSRE list, > it is going > >> to be hard to tell them apart. And as far as I can tell, the TSRE is > internal to the > >> transport, and therefore outside the scope of this document? The > >> differentiation in the diagram that follows the description does not > seem to > >> line up with the description, and leaves me more confused. > > [KM] Yes, it is internal to transport. The reason we have them is to > highlight the 1:N mappings. There may be more than one TSRE mapped to one > TSE. Todo: need to think about improving the figure. > > <jmh> I understand that things are realized. And the question of how > resources are used internally is internal. I don't see the value in > discussing it in this document. I do not think the definition of TSRE > will be used in any of the followon work. </jmh> > > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >>> > >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > >>> > >>> > >>> Title : IETF Definition of Transport Slice > >>> Authors : Reza Rokui > >>> Shunsuke Homma > >>> Kiran Makhijani > >>> Luis M. Contreras > >>> Jeff Tantsura > >>> Filename : draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > >>> Pages : 21 > >>> Date : 2020-07-12 > >>> > >>> Abstract: > >>> This document describes the definition of a slice in the transport > >>> networks and its characteristics. The purpose here is to bring > >>> clarity and a common understanding of the transport slice concept > and > >>> describe related terms and their meaning. It explains how > transport > >>> slices can be used in combination with end to end network slices, > or > >>> independently. > >>> > >>> > >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata > >>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition%2F > >>> > >> &data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549c > >> af08d82 > >>> > >> 6e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096 > >> 09577396 > >>> > >> 3&sdata=7buYe3eJIHKFpKR09vulM9iebHux1y5ZS%2B8lDucs19A%3D&am > >> p;reser > >>> ved=0 > >>> > >>> There are also htmlized versions available at: > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftool > >>> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03& > >>> > >> data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d > >> 826e13a > >>> > >> ab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63730209609577 > >> 3963& > >>> > >> ;sdata=%2BDoN%2Fj%2BsIG4SidwevIEKt%2BAlEBSl5mGY%2BrV8bOKruxY%3D > >> &re > >>> served=0 > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata > >>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defini > >>> tion- > >> 03&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b415 > >> 49c > >>> > >> af08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637 > >> 3020960 > >>> > >> 95773963&sdata=rROaEyLnsvX3i83zAt3DKHD822SQ9cZ4vw05CZzGKYk% > >> 3D& > >>> reserved=0 > >>> > >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: > >>> > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > >>> ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>> - > >> 03&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b415 > >> 49caf08 > >>> > >> d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302 > >> 09609577 > >>> > >> 3963&sdata=VDTj6H50YyxvSKeUxXdDTxUmlhVb34%2FKkRIXMWd4W%2 > >> BY%3D& > >>> reserved=0 > >>> > >>> > >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > >>> > >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.ie > >>> tf.org%2Finternet- > >> drafts%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com% > >>> > >> 7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d559 > >> 1fedc% > >>> > >> 7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=P0ZsXdbhq7q%2BbaTOWOK > >> w8kXUEQQLn > >>> W4CILvj3D87Ghg%3D&reserved=0 > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> I-D-Announce mailing list > >>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >>> > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > >>> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi-d- > >> announce&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm > >>> > >> %40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b > >> 24018 > >>> > >> 9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=UKy30l > >> dThBDSB% > >>> 2F9513KCraQ4ODcTtq%2F%2FDfHSwi8Y6Nk%3D&reserved=0 > >>> Internet-Draft directories: > >>> > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > >>> > >> etf.org%2Fshadow.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com% > >> 7C7b22 > >>> > >> 62bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc% > >> 7C1%7C > >>> > >> 0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=c5sC8mBqP2lTaDxRiqMmVWXQVfBi > >> 0SGf1Nn1A > >>> 5Tiekg%3D&reserved=0 or > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.ie > >>> tf.org%2Fietf%2F1shadow- > >> sites.txt&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewe > >>> > >> i.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753 > >> a1d559 > >>> > >> 1fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=7kPSpNmxVrwrE6by > >> 55jlY%2B5 > >>> yBSHeMXgwZhPYM%2F9yj3Y%3D&reserved=0 > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > >> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu > >> turewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > >> 9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=3q4fLZ > >> 2BdNuYfXsMHmGd%2Be0RO%2BBzxvi4%2FzvL0LCSKPM%3D&reserved= > >> 0 > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Joel Halpern
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Eric Gray
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-… Eric Gray