Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

"Ogaki, Kenichi" <ke-oogaki@kddi.com> Mon, 10 May 2021 02:08 UTC

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From: "Ogaki, Kenichi" <ke-oogaki@kddi.com>
To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/bGnHXftdwgh6ocQk0dIhkGLw6lk>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi Adrian and All,

>I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer" is interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section seems very reasonable.
+1
I don't stick to "customer", but a discussion how about rephrasing "provider" with "producer" may also rise when I choose non-ietf-standard "consumer" term,

Related to this, should we rephrase " IETF Network Slice user" if there is any intention to leave?
5.2.  Expressing Connectivity Intents
The NSC northbound interface (NBI) can be used to communicate between IETF Network Slice users (or customers) and the NSC.
An IETF Network Slice user may be a network operator who, in turn, provides the IETF Network Slice to another IETF Network Slice user or customer.

>the expectation currently is that the IETF Network Slice Service will use something along the lines of the service models (L2SM and L3SM).  It seems reasonable to enhance those with something about service functions, quite possibly along the lines you are already working on.
>
> [TS] (snip) Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request expresses such inclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a  customer-centric  topology that a provider may have furnished earlier to the customer, and which the provider can readily map to their

FYI, L3SM tried to let the customer define such policy against PE site in sec. 6.6.
I know this is non-exhaustive for IETF Network Slice.


Editorials:
- I'm not sure if recent RFCs should refer SNMP as an NBI in the sense of https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/writable-mib-module/ .
5.2.  Expressing Connectivity Intents
o  SNMP ([RFC3417], [RFC3412] and [RFC3414] uses binary encoding (ASN.1).
o  For data modeling, YANG ([RFC6020] and [RFC7950]) may be used to model configuration and other data for NETCONF, RESTCONF, and GNMI - among others; ProtoBufs can be used to model gRPC and GNMI data; Structure of Management Information (SMI) [RFC2578] may be used to define Management Information Base (MIB) modules for SNMP, using an adapted subset of OSI's Abstract Syntax Notation One (ASN.1, 1988).

- multipoint-to-point twice
.2.  IETF Network Slice Endpoints
As noted in Section 3.1, an IETF Network Slice describes connectivity between multiple endpoints across the underlying network.  These connectivity types are: point-to-point, point-to-multipoint, multipoint-to-point, multipoint-to-point, or multipoint-to-multipoint.


All the best,
Kenichi

-----Original Message-----
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Gyan Mishra
Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 10:55 AM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>uk>; Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>om>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>rg>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

I agree with Loa and am not crazy about either customer or consumer as either refers to a “human” endpoint and not a system endpoint made of hardware or software like the term “CE”.  

+1 for Customer over Consumer as a customer is human endpoint that has paid for service SLA where  a consumer is  broader term like subscriber describing for example all broadband subscriber community.

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:55 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com> > wrote:


	Hi,
	I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer" is interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section seems very reasonable. Perhaps the section can include two sub-sections - Abbreviations/Acronyms and Terms/Terminology. I've noticed that there is the forward reference in the section:
	   The above terminology is defined in greater details in the remainder
	   of this document.
	
	It could be those other definitions of terms used in the specific context in the document be collected in the new sub-section.

	Regards,
	Greg


	On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:32 AM Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu> > wrote:
	

		Adrian,
		
		That is acceptable.
		
		As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions 
		section. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms 
		and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.
		
		Your wholesale example:
		
		I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that 
		buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school 
		the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the 
		customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, 
		signed by the bursar.
		
		I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The 
		cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from 
		the system.
		
		It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat 
		similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change 
		it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
		
		Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we 
		have a enough support to use "customer".
		
		I rest my case.
		
		/Loa
		
		
		On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
		> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the document)
		> 
		>     Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
		>        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
		>        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
		>        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
		> 
		> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise network or a
		> network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private
		> individual contracting for a service, or an application or software
		> component."
		> 
		> Cheers,
		> Adrian
		> 
		> -----Original Message-----
		> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>  <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> >
		> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
		> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> ; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu> >; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> 
		> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
		> 
		> Hi all,
		> 
		>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
		> 
		> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic enough
		> to denote a role/entity.
		> 
		> Thanks.
		> 
		> Cheers,
		> Med
		> 
		>> -----Message d'origine-----
		>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org> ] De la part de Adrian Farrel
		>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59
		>> À : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu> >; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> 
		>> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
		>> slices
		>>
		>> Hi Loa,
		>>
		>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
		>>>
		>>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
		>> only need to
		>>>>         use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
		>> best, but I
		>>>>         know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
		>> are not
		>>>>         happy.
		>>>
		>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
		>>
		>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
		>>
		>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
		>>
		>> It's never too late to bring things up.
		>>
		>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
		>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
		>> walks
		>>> inte to your
		>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
		>> your shop).
		>>
		>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
		>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
		>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
		>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
		>> cook, signed by the bursar.
		>>
		>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
		>> we
		>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
		>>>
		>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
		>>
		>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
		>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
		>> become tiresome to read.
		>>
		>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
		>>
		>> Cheers,
		>> Adrian
		>>
		>> _______________________________________________
		>> Teas mailing list
		>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> 
		>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
		> 
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		-- 
		
		Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu> 
		Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com <mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com> 
		Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
		
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