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Fri, 07 Jun 2024 23:41:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171775367359.61526.13460294319166688678@ietfa.amsl.com> <5E5DB371-3050-4FB5-87B0-E1DF48FC3397@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5E5DB371-3050-4FB5-87B0-E1DF48FC3397@gmail.com> From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 07:41:06 +0100 Message-ID: To: Mahesh Jethanandani Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000964c08061a5b3585" Message-ID-Hash: UKM6JSJF5LNSX5UL3ZWVELKDLX6FEY5C X-Message-ID-Hash: UKM6JSJF5LNSX5UL3ZWVELKDLX6FEY5C X-MailFrom: dhruv.ietf@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-teas.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "Gunter van de Velde (Nokia)" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang@ietf.org" , "teas-chairs@ietf.org" , "teas@ietf.org" , "vbeeram@juniper.net" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BTeas=5D_Re=3A_Gunter_Van_de_Velde=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-tea?= =?utf-8?q?s-actn-vn-yang-27=3A_=28with_DISCUSS=29?= List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000964c08061a5b3585 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000964c07061a5b3583" --000000000000964c07061a5b3583 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Mahesh, Gunter, I have made an update to the YANG. - I updated the module description to include the abbreviations - Changed the following leaf names of child nodes - vn-id to id - ap-id to id - vn-ap-id to id - vnm-id to id - src to ap - src-vn-ap-id to vn-ap-id - dest to ap - dest-vn-ap-id to vn-ap-id Please check the update. I will update the tree, json, and text to upload a new revision once you are satisfied. Thanks, Dhruv On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 7:30=E2=80=AFPM Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > Hi Gunter/Dhruv, > > Gunter, you are right that the idea of YANG has been to make it a very > readable, and therefore understandable language. And this extends to how > node names are selected. The section that you quote below goes to the hea= rt > of that desire, and has been captured after extensive discussion in the > NETMOD WG. If I understand you, there are two issues that you highlightin= g. > The use of acronyms in node names, and the naming of parent vs child node= s. > > To the use of acronyms in node names, there is obviously a balance betwee= n > that and providing descriptive enough names that make the model reading > easy, i.e., avoid long XPaths. Generally, if the draft uses an acronym an= d > explains its usage in the draft, it is fair to use it in the YANG model. > Towards that end, the compromise that the WG came up with, sounds > reasonable to me. However, I do expect the authors to use the description > field in the YANG model to carry some of that description from the draft, > to help with readability. That is because once the YANG model is separate= d > from the draft, the description in the draft can get lost. Therefore, if > the YANG model names a node =E2=80=98vn=E2=80=99, I expect the descriptio= n field to expand > it to say =E2=80=9CVirtual Network (VN) ...=E2=80=9D. Moreover, lot of to= ols, including > OpenAPI generators, use the description field to describe usage, which > makes it all the more important to have good descriptions. > > The use of parent identifier in the child is a litte more straight > forward. There is really no need to. In this case, instead of =E2=80=98vn= -id=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98id=E2=80=99 > would have sufficed. > > HTH. > > On Jun 7, 2024, at 6:07 AM, Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) < > gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote: > > Hi Dhruv, > > Using container names in leaf names is something that should be avoided. > It adds no additional meaning and increases the path length. > > Descriptions clarify what a particular node or statement is intended for, > making the model easier to understand for those who read it. > > There is a hint about this specified in: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-20#sec= tion-4.3.1 > > =E2=80=9C > Identifiers SHOULD include complete words and/or well-known acronyms > or abbreviations. Child nodes within a container or list SHOULD NOT > replicate the parent identifier. YANG identifiers are hierarchical > and are only meant to be unique within the the set of sibling nodes > defined in the same module namespace. > > It is permissible to use common identifiers such as "name" or "id" in > data definition statements, especially if these data nodes share a > common data type. > =E2=80=9C > > However, I'm uncertain whether the IETF mandates or enforces the use of > human-readable names for YANG nodes, or whether there are guidelines to > avoid including parent node names in the names of sibling nodes. > > Perhaps @Mahesh Jethanandani (NETMOD AD) could > provide some insight on this matter? If this aspect hasn=E2=80=99t been a= priority > and has not been enforced at the IETF, then I might be overly concerned > about the readability and style of YANG. > > G/ > > > > > > *From:* Dhruv Dhody > *Sent:* Friday, June 7, 2024 2:09 PM > *To:* Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) > *Cc:* The IESG ; draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang@ietf.org; > teas-chairs@ietf.org; teas@ietf.org; vbeeram@juniper.net > *Subject:* Re: Gunter Van de Velde's Discuss on > draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-27: (with DISCUSS) > > > *CAUTION:* This is an external email. Please be very careful when > clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for > additional information. > > > Hi Gunter, > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 12:01=E2=80=AFPM Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) < > gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote: > > I understand. It is always a compromise. I fight with this myself all the > time when suffering yang coding moments. > > In this file i see for example src. Why not use =E2=80=98source=E2=80=99?= same with other > key-words. > > > > Dhruv: It was kept as 'src' to match it with 'dest'. > If we change it, we should change to 'source' and 'destination'. And also > handle other leaves like multi-src, multi-dest, src-vn-ap-id, dest-vn-ap-= id > and feature name 'multi-src-dest'. > > Longer names also makes the tree diagram difficult to follow because of > the 80 char width (especially with the feature name). > > > > About your example: > > > path "/virtual-network/vn/vn-id"; will become > > path "/virtual-network/virtual-network/virtual-network-identifier"; > > > I question the fact that it is not required that the virtual-network > should be repeated for the =E2=80=9Cidentifier=E2=80=9D leaf. > More user friendly and less long would be: > > path "/virtual-network/virtual-network/identifier"; > > > Once you are in the node virtual-network, you know you are handling a > virtual-network identifier. Why name it double? It makes the path longer > for no apparent reason as you correctly observed. > > > > Dhruv: I agree. If the change is made, following your suggestion would > make sense. I was just illustrating my point :) > > I am a little apprehensive in making this late change that will have a > huge churn in the document (and the model). The JSON examples would need = to > be reworked as well as other YANG models that build on the VN model. Coul= d > I add text in the description clause in the YANG module that expands thes= e > abbreviations instead? > > But, if you feel strongly about this (and the responsible AD confirms) I > will make the requested change. > > Thanks, > Dhruv > > > > > > > > G/ > > > *From:* Dhruv Dhody > *Sent:* Friday, June 7, 2024 12:35 PM > *To:* Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) > *Cc:* The IESG ; draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang@ietf.org; > teas-chairs@ietf.org; teas@ietf.org;vbeeram@juniper.net > *Subject:* Re: Gunter Van de Velde's Discuss on > draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-27: (with DISCUSS) > > > *CAUTION:* This is an external email. Please be very careful when > clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for > additional information. > > > Hi Gunter, > > Thanks for your review. > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:47=E2=80=AFAM Gunter Van de Velde via Datatrack= er < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > Gunter Van de Velde has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-27: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/handling-ballot-positio= ns/ > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > # Gunter Van de Velde, RTG AD, comments for draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-= 27 > > Please find https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/ > documenting the handling of ballots. > > Many thanks for the RTG-DIR reviews from Darren Dukes and many thanks to > Vishnu > Pavan Beeram for the Shepherd write-up. > > Please find below 1 blocking DISCUSS about the yang node names used, that > seems > reasonably simple to address > > #DISCUSS items > #=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ##DISCUSS1 > One of the motivations to use YANG is to have human readable structure to > understand config and state of a device. When looking through the documen= t > i > see many very abbreviated acronymns. e.g. vn, vn-id, src, src-vn-ap.id, > etc > > If not overly lengthy, why not use node names in the style of source, > virtual-network, virtual-network-id, etc? There is no real reason to > abbreviate > in the yang model, assuming the node names are not overly long and it mak= es > reading and understanding the leafs more trivial. > > > Dhruv: The complaint that we get with longer names is that the leafref > paths become too long and lose human readability. > > > +--rw virtual-network > > +--rw vn* [vn-id] > > +--rw vn-id vn-id > > > > > > path "/virtual-network/vn/vn-id"; will become > > path "/virtual-network/virtual-network/virtual-network-identifier"; > > > The idea of expanding it once as a top container and using VN for leaves > inside seems like a good compromise. I would also consider VN to be > well-known for anyone dealing with this YANG file. > > Hope this explains our thinking, does it make sense to you? > > Thanks, > Dhruv > > > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > > > > > > > --000000000000964c07061a5b3583 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Mahesh, Gunter,
=

I ha= ve made an update to the YANG.=C2=A0
- I updated the module description to = include the abbreviations
- Changed the = following leaf names of child nodes
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - vn-id to id
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - ap-id to id
- vn-ap-id to id
=
- vnm-id to id
- src to ap
- dest to= ap
- dest-vn-ap-id to vn-ap-id
<= /blockquote>

Please check the=C2=A0update. I will update the tree, json, an= d text to upload a new revision once you are satisfied.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Tha= nks,
Dhruv



On Fri, Jun 7, 2024= at 7:30=E2=80=AFPM Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 7, 2024, at 6:07 AM,= Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
=
Hi Dhru= v,
=C2=A0
Using = container names in leaf names is something that should be avoided. It adds = no additional meaning and increases the path length.
<= span lang=3D"en-BE" style=3D"font-size:11pt">=C2=A0
Descriptions clarify what a par= ticular node or statement is intended for, making the model easier to under= stand for those who read it.
=C2=A0
There is a hint about this specified in:<= /span>
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 and are = only meant to be unique within the the set of sibling nodes
=C2=A0=C2= =A0 defined in the same module namespace.
=C2=A0<= /div>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 It = is permissible to use common identifiers such as "name" or "= id" in
=C2=A0=C2=A0 data definition statements, especially if the= se data nodes share a
=C2=A0=C2=A0 common data type.
=E2=80=9C
=C2=A0
However, I'm uncerta= in whether the IETF mandates or enforces the use of human-readable names fo= r YANG nodes, or whether there are guidelines to avoid including parent nod= e names in the names of sibling nodes.
=C2=A0
Perhaps=C2=A0@M= ahesh Jethanandani=C2=A0(NETMOD AD) could provide s= ome insight on this matter? If this aspect hasn=E2=80=99t been a priority a= nd has not been enforced at the IETF, then I might be overly concerned abou= t the readability and style of YANG.=C2=A0
=C2=A0=
G/
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0
<= div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0= Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>=C2=A0
Sent:=C2=A0Friday, June 7,= 2024 2:09 PM
To:=C2=A0Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) &= lt;gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com= >
Cc:=C2=A0The IESG <ie= sg@ietf.org>;=C2=A0draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang@ietf.org;=C2=A0teas-chairs@ietf.org;=C2=A0teas@ietf.org;=C2=A0vbeeram@juniper.net
Subject:=C2=A0Re= : Gunter Van de Velde's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-27: (wi= th DISCUSS)
= =C2=A0
=C2=A0<= /u>
CAUTION:= =C2=A0This is an external email. Please be very careful when clickin= g links or opening attachments. See the URL=C2=A0nok.it/ext=C2=A0for additional information.<= u>

= =C2=A0

Hi Gun= ter,
=C2=A0=
On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 12:01=E2=80=AFPM Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) <gunter.van_de_velde@nok= ia.com> wrote:
= I understand. It is always a compromise. I fight with this myself all the t= ime when suffering yang coding moments.<= u>
=C2=A0
In this file i see for example src. Why not use =E2=80=98source= =E2=80=99? same with other key-words.=
=C2=A0
=
= =C2=A0
Dhruv: It was kept as 'src' to match it with 'dest= '.
If we change it, we should change to 'source' and &#= 39;destination'. And also handle other leaves like=C2=A0multi-src, mult= i-dest, src-vn-ap-id, dest-vn-ap-id and feature name 'multi-src-dest= 9;.
=C2=A0
Lo= nger names also makes the tree diagram difficult to follow because of the 8= 0 char width (especially with the feature name).
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
<= blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt= ;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm = 5pt 4.8pt">
About yo= ur example:
=C2=A0
path "/virtual-network/vn/v=
n-id"; will become
path "=
/virtual-network/virtual-network/virtual-network-identifier";
=C2=A0
I question the fact that it is not r=
equired that the virtual-network should be repeated for the =E2=80=9Cidenti=
fier=E2=80=9D leaf.
<= div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">More user friendly and less long wo= uld be:
path "/virtual-network/virtual-network/identifier";<=
/span>
=C2=A0=
Once you are in the node vir= tual-network, you know you are handling a virtual-network identifier. Why n= ame it double? It makes the path longer for no apparent reason as you corre= ctly observed.
=C2=A0
<= u>=C2=A0
Dhruv: I = agree. If the change is made, following your suggestion would make sense. I= was just illustrating my point :)
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
But, if you feel strongly about this (and the responsible AD= confirms) I will make the requested change.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Thanks,
Dhruv
<= u>=C2=A0
=C2=A0<= u>
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0
<= div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">=C2=A0
= =C2=A0
G/
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>=C2=A0
= Sent:=C2=A0Friday, June 7, 2024 12:35 PM
To:=C2=A0Gunter van de Velde (Nokia) <= gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
Cc:=C2=A0The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"= >>;=C2=A0draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang@ietf.org= ;=C2=A0teas-chairs@ietf.org;=C2=A0<= /span>teas@ietf.org;vbeer= am@juniper.net
Subject:=C2=A0Re:= Gunter Van de Velde's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-27: (wit= h DISCUSS)
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
CAUTION:=C2=A0This is an external email. Plea= se be very careful when clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL<= span>=C2=A0nok.it/ext=C2=A0for additional informat= ion.

=C2=A0

Hi Gunter,
=C2=A0=
Thanks for your review.
= =C2=A0
On Fri, Jun 7, 2= 024 at 10:47=E2=80=AFAM Gunter Van de Velde via Datatra= cker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

Gunter Van de Velde has entered the following ballot position for
dr= aft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-27: Discuss

When responding, please keep = the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the= To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however= .)


Please refer to=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/ab= out/groups/iesg/statements/handling-ballot-positions/=C2=A0
for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions= .


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here:
h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang/


---------------------------------------------------------------------= -
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------= ------------

# Gunter Van de Velde, RTG AD, comments for draft-ietf-= teas-actn-vn-yang-27

Please find=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/blog/handli= ng-iesg-ballot-positions/
documenting the handling of ballots.
Many thanks for the RTG-DIR reviews from Darren Dukes and many thanks to = Vishnu
Pavan Beeram for the Shepherd write-up.

Please find below = 1 blocking DISCUSS about the yang node names used, that seems
reasonably= simple to address

#DISCUSS items
#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D
##DISCUSS1
One of the motivations to use YANG is to have hu= man readable structure to
understand config and state of a device. When = looking through the document i
see many very abbreviated acronymns. e.g.= vn, vn-id, src,=C2=A0src-vn-ap.id, etc

If not overly lengthy, why not use node names in the style of= source,
virtual-network, virtual-network-id, etc? There is no real reas= on to abbreviate
in the yang model, assuming the node names are not over= ly long and it makes
reading and understanding the leafs more trivial.

<= /blockquote>
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