Re: [Terminology] Update to TERM charter text

Hi all,

Remembering that once this WG is chartered it's supposed to draft a 
document. So, aren't we making it much harder for ourselves by creating 
this abstraction layer that first needs IESG+community approval of a 
charter, and then also production of a document that will need 
WG+AD+IESG+Community approval? A document just needs GA/AD+Community 
approval once.

-Mallory

On 4/13/21 6:48 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> Niels,
>
> I don't understand your concern. The IETF process doesn't treat 
> charters the same as drafts. It's the IESG's job to approve charters, 
> because until there is a charter, there is no WG and no WG Chair. And 
> it's the whole IETF's input that counts, not just the people who 
> happened to propose the charter.
>
> Regards
> Â  Brian
>
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2021, 22:39 Niels ten Oever, 
> <lists@digitaldissidents.org <mailto:lists@digitaldissidents.org>> wrote:
>
>
>     On 13-04-2021 12:22, Bron Gondwana wrote:
>     > Unfortunately, this "problem" is not restricted to
>     GENDISPATCH.Â  I haven't even been in the IETF that long but I've
>     seen multiple documents - drafts, charters, etc, be exposed to
>     larger review and have the carefully crafted work of a working
>     group be re-considered when it's exposed to a wider review.
>     >
>     > Indeed, this is precisely the function of an IETF last-call -
>     otherwise why do we bother sending work to the IESG for review?Â 
>     We could just deliver every piece of careful "working group last
>     call"ed document directly to the RFC editor with no
>     cross-sectional review.
>     >
>     > Of course, the flip side is that as a participant in the
>     process, you can ask for the work to be brought back to
>     GENDISPATCH to see whether there's consensus for the new document
>     or not.Â  Or you could just object to charter in its current form
>     I guess, I'm not sure how that works at IETF last-call stage.Â 
>     One thing is for sure, the IETF processes aren't good at enforcing
>     that the IETF goes ahead with the exact consensus product of a
>     single working group, unchanged by wider review.
>
>     In my experience, IESG review brings up comments that are for the
>     authors to fix, instead of IESG fixing them for you.
>
>     Best,
>
>     Niels
>
>     >
>     > Regards,
>     >
>     > Bron.
>     >
>     > On Tue, Apr 13, 2021, at 19:41, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>     >> Dear IESG,
>     >>
>     >> I am dismayed by the discussion in the IESG on the charter and
>     the revisions that are proposed. The charter that was proposed was
>     the product of long and complex discussions in GENDISPATCH. The
>     review in the IESG is now rehashing those debates but changing the
>     outcome. The changes in the charter are thus subvert the consensus
>     that was carefully built. The proposed changes therefore undermine
>     and jeopardize the work that the proposed WG could produce.Â
>     >>
>     >> Best,
>     >>
>     >> Niels
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On 13-04-2021 08:46, Lars Eggert wrote:
>     >> > Hi,
>     >> >Â
>     >> > there is now an -05 version that rolls in some additional
>     feedback received yesterday:Â
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/00-05/
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/00-05/>
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/00-05/
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/00-05/>>
>     >> >Â
>     >> > Diff atÂ
>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt>
>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>     <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-term%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt>>
>     >> >Â
>     >> > Thanks,
>     >> > Lars
>     >> >Â
>     >> >Â
>     >> >Â
>     >>
>     >> --Â
>     >> Niels ten Oever, PhD
>     >> Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University
>     of Amsterdam
>     >> Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights -
>     European University Viadrina
>     >> Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade -
>     FundaÃ§Ã£o GetÃºlio Vargas
>     >>
>     >> https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
>     <https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>> -Â
>     mail@nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>
>     <mailto:mail%40nielstenoever.net
>     <mailto:mail%2540nielstenoever.net>> - @nielstenoever - +31629051853
>     >> PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
>     >>
>     >> Read my latest article on Internet infrastructure governance in
>     New Media & Society here:Â
>     https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320
>     <https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320>
>     <https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320
>     <https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320>>
>     >>
>     >> --Â
>     >> Terminology mailing list
>     >> Terminology@ietf.org <mailto:Terminology@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:Terminology%40ietf.org <mailto:Terminology%2540ietf.org>>
>     >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology>
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology>>
>     >>
>     >
>     > --
>     > Â  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>     > Â brong@fastmailteam.com <mailto:brong@fastmailteam.com>
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>     -- 
>     Niels ten Oever, PhD
>     Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
>     Amsterdam
>     Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
>     University Viadrina
>     Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - FundaÃ§Ã£o
>     GetÃºlio Vargas
>
>     https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net> -
>     mail@nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net> -
>     @nielstenoever - +31629051853
>     PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
>
>     Read my latest article on Internet infrastructure governance in
>     New Media & Society here:
>     https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320
>     <https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1461444820929320>
>
>     -- 
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>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology>
>
>
-- 
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
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