Re: [Time] Strong Technology Dependency

Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> Tue, 01 July 2014 03:40 UTC

Return-Path: <bill.wu@huawei.com>
X-Original-To: time@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: time@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187141A00DA; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 20:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.851
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tQV49vNL1pxf; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 20:40:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2BF71A00C9; Mon, 30 Jun 2014 20:40:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BGQ82861; Tue, 01 Jul 2014 03:40:12 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 04:40:10 +0100
Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.155]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 11:40:03 +0800
From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Gregory Mirsky <gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com>, "time@ietf.org" <time@ietf.org>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Strong Technology Dependency
Thread-Index: AQHPkExClaEuAYsfAkmaJiSeVAvEmZuIxghggAF5cuCAAFSaoA==
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 03:40:02 +0000
Message-ID: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA8457BCE4@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845491A9@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330016F2E@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA84573094@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933001D499@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845756DA@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA8457B68F@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B7E4426@eusaamb103.ericsson.se>
In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B7E4426@eusaamb103.ericsson.se>
Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US
Content-Language: zh-CN
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180]
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA8457BCE4nkgeml501mbschi_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/time/S9IV75QSKHnp-E3OuRS-LJavmE8
Subject: Re: [Time] Strong Technology Dependency
X-BeenThere: time@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Transport Independent OAM in Multi-Layer network Entity \(TIME\) discussion list." <time.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/time>, <mailto:time-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/time/>
List-Post: <mailto:time@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:time-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/time>, <mailto:time-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 03:40:18 -0000

Hi, Greg:

发件人: Gregory Mirsky [mailto:gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com]
发送时间: 2014年7月1日 6:33
收件人: Qin Wu; time@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
主题: RE: Strong Technology Dependency

Hi Qin,
thank you for kind consideration of my comments. Glad we’re agree on most so we can clip them and concentrate on few remaining.
Please find my notes in-line and tagged GIM>> below.

                Regards,
                                Greg

From: Qin Wu [mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 12:39 AM
To: time@ietf.org<mailto:time@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
Cc: Gregory Mirsky
Subject: RE: Strong Technology Dependency

[…]

Greg>Echo(Ping) does not provide CV as IP is connectionless and has no definition of Misconnection defect.

[Qin]:Not sure about this. RFC7276 said LSP Ping is used for end-to-end
  Connectivity Verification between two LERs.
Therefore I think  IP Ping can also provide CV, what am I missing?
GIM>> I think of CV as proactive OAM mechanism that detects particular defect and has clear definition of defect entry and defect exit criteria. LSP Ping verifies consistency between control and data plane. That, IMO, is close to CV but without definition of defect state is not the CV.

[Qin]: Interesting point, maybe we can category CV into strict CV and loose CV. I think you are talking about strict CV.
Alternatively, we may need a clear definition of CV that can be applied to any technologies, i.e., technology independent terminology.

[...]

Greg>Not, BFD and BFD Echo do not provide CV for the same reason as for ICMP – do definition of Misconnection defect. Besides, BFD Echo doesn’t work for multi-hop case but only for single hop.

[Qin]: Not sure about this. RFC7276 said SP Ping is used for end-to-end
  Connectivity Verification between two LERs.
Since BFD Echo is similar to LSP Ping, I think BFD Echo also can provide CV.
GIM>> Unlike LSP Ping BFD does not verify consistency of data plane vs. control plane. BFD could and may be used as CV if it would be accompanied with definition of Misconnection Defect, its Entry and Exit conditions and how the defect gets signaled, i.e. through Diag field. So far applicability of the code for Mis-connectivity defect, defined in RFC 6428, not been discussed in IP or IP/MPLS networks but only in MPLS-TP domains.

[Qin]: So your point is the current BFD only can integrated into MPLS-TP to provide CV, am I right?
What about RFC5885 “Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for the Pseudowire Virtual Circuit Connectivity Verification (VCCV)”, can I understand it as BFD being integrated with PW to provide CV?

[…]

Greg>MPLS-TP provides CC through use of BFD
Greg>MPLS-TP provides CV through use of BFD and extension  to provide Source ID.

[Qin]: Besides using BFD, is there any other way to provide CC or CV?
GIM>> I think of CV as optional mode that may be realized with the help of CC mechanism. Thus, in addition to Loss of Continuity defect, there must be definition of Mis-connection defect. It could be BFD, CCM/ETH-CC or else (though not sure whether there’s anything “else”).

[Qin] Yes, CC and CV can be complementary. We need to generalize these terms and apply them to various technologies.

                Regards,
                                Greg

发件人: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 Qin Wu
发送时间: 2014年6月25日 16:06
收件人: time@ietf.org<mailto:time@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
抄送: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
主题: [OPSAWG] Strong Technology Dependency

Hi, Mohamed:
Thanks for details review to problem statement draft
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ww-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-00
and update I sent to you.

Regarding strong technology dependency issue,
Section 4.2 gives an address scheme  example to explain why the existing OAM mechanism has strong
Technology as follows:
“

Addressing scheme is a good example for an issue

that has a high price for being non-generic.  Ping of IPv4 and IPv6

looks different in the addressing scheme as well in the ICMP

indication field, but they have the same OAM functionalities.
”
You asked to clarify the exact point of this paragraph.
I think what this paragraph said is
For IP ping, IPv4 Ping protocol [RFC792] and IPv6 ping protocol [RFC4443] use different IP technology but share the same OAM function.

But I agree with you address scheme is not a typical example for strong technology dependency.
I think the typical example is ICMP, LSP Ping and MPLS-TP OAM are using different network technology but share the same OAM
functionality, i.e., Path Discovery.  Another example is ICMP,BFD,LSP Ping and MPLS-TP OAM are using different network technology but share
the same functionality, i.e., continuity check.

The following figure shows common OAM functionalities shared by various existing OAM protocols.
   |--------+-----------+--------------+--------------+------------+
   |        |Continuity |  Connectivity|    Path      | Performance|
   |        |  Check    |  Verification|  Discovery   | Monitoring |
   +--------+-----------+--------------+--------------+------------+
   |        |           |              |              |            |
   | ICMP   |           |   Echo(Ping) |  Traceroute  |            |
   |        |           |              |              |            |
   +--------+-----------+--------------+--------------+------------+
   |        |           |              |              |            |
   | BFD    |  BFD      |   BFD Echo   |              |            |
   |        | Control   |              |              |            |
   +--------+-----------+--------------+--------------+------------+
   | LSP    |           |              |              | - Delay    |
   | Ping   |           |   Ping       |  Traceroute  | - Packet   |
   |        |           |              |              |    Loss    |
   +--------+-----------+--------------+--------------+------------+
   |        |           |              |              |            |
   | IPPM   |           |              |              |            |
   |        |           |              |              |            |
   |--------+-----------+--------------+--------------+------------+
   | MPLS-TP|           |              |              |            |
   | OAM    |  CC       |   CV         |  Traceroute  | -Delay     |
   |        |           |              |              | -Packet    |
   |        |           |              |              |   Loss     |
   +--------+-----------+--------------+--------------+------------+

Hope this clarifies.

Regards!
-Qin

发件人: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
发送时间: 2014年6月24日 22:13
收件人: Qin Wu
主题: RE: Unified oam BOF proposal request in IETF 90

Hi Qin,

Please find attached a first set of comments.

Cheers,
Med