Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-00
mrex@sap.com (Martin Rex) Wed, 29 October 2014 02:35 UTC
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To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 03:35:28 +0100
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From: mrex@sap.com
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/-YA-owgWI1_urpiHv_n1VO9Ox5s
Cc: tls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-00
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Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > > The failed handshakes associated with false positive fallback behavior > are from network glitches, right? not from poorly-implemented or > unmaintained servers. As you can see from 5-years-unfixed annoying broken connection management in Firefox you should be able to see that a huge amount of problems of false positives come from poor connection management and poor heuristics, and some from middlelboxes. network glitches are probably quite rare. > > in the face of a network glitch, user agents have three options (browser > behavior in parens): > > 0) report the connection failure up the stack (browsers: show the user > the "try again button") > > 1) automatically try the connection again, same as last time > > 2) try the connection again with a fallback handshake > > > > in the false positive cases that we're discussing here, (1) is probably > the best option. doing (2) leads directly to choosing a degraded > ciphersuite. > > including the SCSV with (2) gives the client an inappropriate_fallback > alert, which they can use to recognize the false positive situation and > do (1) instead. This is a misunderstanding. You may see much less of the inappropriate_fallback alerts that you might believe you would. Apps on top of transport-less SSL implementations, such as Microsoft's IIS on top of Microsoft SChannel SSP has historically never written any fatal alerts (from the SChannel SSP) to the network before closing the connection upon handshake failures. I don't know what the current state is, but if this behaviour is still common with Micrsoft IIS, then asking the server to abort with a fatal alert rather then continuing the handshake with a ServerHelloExtension might have *MUCH* less of a chance to get hotfixed into the installed base compared to purely TLS-internal (i.e. SChannel-only) change similar to Renego-protection, where the server continues the Handshake (provided that the negotiable security parameters are still acceptable to the servers own policy), leaving the decision whether to abort and reconnect up to the client --because only the client is in the position to perform a reconnect, and only the client has a chance to keep track on whether and how often it is doing fallbacks and whether the fallback frequency crosses some threshold that should not be exceeded without prior explicit user confirmation. Continuing the handshake would not require any app-level changes to Servers that have not been writing fatal SSL alerts to the network before connection closure in the past, such as Microsoft IIS, so clients with fallback heuristics will be in a *MUCH* better position to recognize and distinguish accidental network glitches or connection management bugs from attacks. I expect the false positives to outnumber attacks by at least three orders of magnitudes. -Martin
- [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-tls-… Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Fabrice
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… CodesInChaos
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Tom Ritter
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Fahima Ahmed Khan Etha
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Henrik Grubbström
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: Re: W… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb (was: R… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call fordraft-ietf-t… Rob Stradling
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call fordraft-ietf-t… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call fordraft-ietf-t… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV time bomb Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-… Bodo Moeller