[TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (Ends 2025-11-26)

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Mon, 17 November 2025 02:08 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BCB8AABAB7; Sun, 16 Nov 2025 18:08:33 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.998
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOpbnag7UQDH; Sun, 16 Nov 2025 18:08:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from DB3PR0202CU003.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-northeuropeazon11020089.outbound.protection.outlook.com [52.101.84.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B4688AABAA8; Sun, 16 Nov 2025 18:08:30 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector10001; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=IJXCfiVRf+LtsAhQ3Fll02Gx7P2ABGzcxOZGeuAao72XHIIbgoxdXBBic+4YRS+XWsyCxTTiQl0cDEOxtB7zMHCI1cPS+a+SzwVBjbhHlnxztwFJWF0t6+ZelB3tHEVo0d14OfuvNyouHnG0/pYiAIQd3YK4Nd9WnpeY2+5xjHO5j3wrdYx6wRd5ui19//wYjouPILb/KKHnWhpv9K57ZS7nVLpF0aPBrx6etB4LhfnnwBvEmDwFRPQmkK+kD6V7BAtGZlyp8+AnTJu2ZYcpzE8XeMiLLhhtQFGast8W/QXHmUjYp/W1AwwhJi5AvLP0paeLZIRceSEMAGpby5WcQA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector10001; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=fUYP6/vAPsiifoA5r1vVzZfqrJQ25qcEqv3FW9BPCAM=; b=sMPfha7aJ1jsvU/ccbrfuIMIS/TgGlyv4uyUCVQL029XE2qM85ziqFI0pZfkcWT4xNIjoU2+F5VJyV1iD6DQUCDbgI7PCXEiCV9FYR7xiddfFSp7RPMFTKIJO1JkwHTAIVkUhdJYqr4LMZAyq+vOvAbwE4MTUuAiL5gj1PjmXh3gEJWF7NDo22XR5BD/0K4NSpZ5aodmfQBXiRaEgBBDEfDbH9bXgWIVwoq1YONQf+lBQt5anE3tUS8Jvv7ISmY4uNgbJcJ+9/Ddi4R9dwaVIE0uvWOHzuHqG5y7qYLi02WbbDdPY3k3poUcpu5OYCz2xjDunbHilF0o2jVy2FuR8w==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=fUYP6/vAPsiifoA5r1vVzZfqrJQ25qcEqv3FW9BPCAM=; b=lCsESmfamXiPr8bjNw3QkP/4K0wciojptRlY3ARLTuDo/iVFnYngtQ3rgCDaFo4RtJtNK0HKDFsVioY9wdIkkIOs/eO10VqGbmR81Sn5v+AVd2KFwO24McsiuYCCO+vZjfEzlGneHwy58XaZZZfDVO6dfBD+OJnzkN8pPcOq0cD4aufOHxW49wdADxJugxomdD8DRtJR9kYUJb+EzXcbB8uxIR6gSVHI2gv3np0dYVK8766w64Lr3qATrpQln2HZLk7Rek9M07bj45+JqGFw2G6kLC6r0kOJdxj1Db8iSo1wVTL9seJsgVmmt6gq7/hwXx9XW67JPpIv7oZZcpsnBA==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from PA3PR02MB11163.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:102:4b4::19) by AS4PR02MB8744.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:58d::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.9320.21; Mon, 17 Nov 2025 02:08:21 +0000
Received: from PA3PR02MB11163.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d308:cb8d:9d3d:31b1]) by PA3PR02MB11163.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d308:cb8d:9d3d:31b1%5]) with mapi id 15.20.9320.021; Mon, 17 Nov 2025 02:08:21 +0000
Message-ID: <74e26cdc-71cf-4c71-b4bb-808825298d72@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2025 02:08:19 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>, Loganaden Velvindron <loganaden@gmail.com>
References: <176236867319.904123.10146982018394612684@dt-datatracker-5df8666cb-7l4w5> <bc79d0a8-ff81-4b02-aca0-4221ad6a8fd0@cs.tcd.ie> <CAOp4FwTU4vWOS3cuWP+AsfG=CEt0etkwQvLzHqo=+rPHpD-8+g@mail.gmail.com> <BN0P110MB1419527DD1259D60E629734E90CEA@BN0P110MB1419.NAMP110.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; keydata= xjMEY9GzphYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAo6JvjmSbxHdQWPZdvciQYsHhM1NxQBU398Mmimoy4p7N M1N0ZXBoZW4gRmFycmVsbCAoMjU1MTkpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsKQ BBMWCAA4FiEEMG54R8tZDyZFrDOn5Njp+ZeoM90FAmPRs6YCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYC AwECHgECF4AACgkQ5Njp+ZeoM93bogEA25ElRyX0wwg+kGEN1AoL60MoZfvQZ/VtmXY6IC5j +csBAIBpkL5ySuzJK2zLNZn9qQGht8IaUcA7cvDcLvS2uHUEzjgEY9GzphIKKwYBBAGXVQEF AQEHQILCPWOwW36e8D3pY8GmvvtItIT+A5uV80ist+WokVsQAwEIB8J4BBgWCAAgFiEEMG54 R8tZDyZFrDOn5Njp+ZeoM90FAmPRs6YCGwwACgkQ5Njp+ZeoM92bcAEA8R+8cpqRUIS+SoAN iO05xE6O/wEx8/e88BqzAYki3SoBAOQdwiPX+MQrAxkWD8xxOsdMOAtxYKpkD1n8aPJUw6QJ
In-Reply-To: <BN0P110MB1419527DD1259D60E629734E90CEA@BN0P110MB1419.NAMP110.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------VhWIeOjsgNj5PrAZs1z0huW0"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB9PR01CA0011.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:10:1d8::16) To PA3PR02MB11163.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:102:4b4::19)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: PA3PR02MB11163:EE_|AS4PR02MB8744:EE_
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 2ec003d8-f20c-4a2b-9674-08de257e2e67
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|376014|19092799006|10070799003|1800799024|366016;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:PA3PR02MB11163.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(376014)(19092799006)(10070799003)(1800799024)(366016);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2ec003d8-f20c-4a2b-9674-08de257e2e67
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PA3PR02MB11163.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Nov 2025 02:08:21.1702 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: VDMUqXUJ88t/KIysXsImqQhwiV8GLlcigZ21WSMeTe0fii8aVji7RJ9HYD29DdqN
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS4PR02MB8744
Message-ID-Hash: IEUFRYBGRIRFLDNQC6SLDPCZSJY3MUXI
X-Message-ID-Hash: IEUFRYBGRIRFLDNQC6SLDPCZSJY3MUXI
X-MailFrom: stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "draft-ietf-tls-mlkem@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tls-mlkem@ietf.org>, "tls-chairs@ietf.org" <tls-chairs@ietf.org>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (Ends 2025-11-26)
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/0h-U_r8VC2BwLozUNL2FeSyOPsc>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>

Hiya,

On 10/11/2025 16:26, Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL wrote:
> Except for a few dissenters who absolutely can’t accept that 
> somebody else may use pure mlkem1024.

I'm quite fine with being classified as a dissenter:-) (*)

Aside from the quote above I assume being intended as a pejorative,
that doesn't I think capture at least my objection to this draft
as-is.

I think we ought not publish this without some guidance for those
who are deploying now/soon. I think (as per [1]) that we should
provide guidance that will encourage interop and security, and this
draft does not currently do that, instead it (IMO) encourages a
lack of interop and use of perhaps more risky implementations.

Cheers,
S.

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrell-tls-pqg/

(*) The term dissenter has a history where I'm from where it's a
more-or-less positive term if you read the 18th century history
and factor out the mythology, religion, secret-societies and
violence around e.g. Wolfe Tone and the united Irishmen. I don't
know if someone's tried to map 18th century revolutions to our
current situation of corporate dominance, but I bet it could be
(and probably has been) done:-)