Re: [TLS] [tls13-spec] relax certificate_list ordering requirements to match current practice (#169)

"Ryan Sleevi" <> Tue, 12 May 2015 17:13 UTC

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References: <tlswg/tls13-spec/pull/> <tlswg/tls13-spec/pull/169/> <> <> <>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 10:13:26 -0700
From: Ryan Sleevi <>
To: Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos <>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] [tls13-spec] relax certificate_list ordering requirements to match current practice (#169)
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On Tue, May 12, 2015 7:48 am, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
>  Nevertheless, RFC 4158 is
>  far from being a standard (just an informational RFC),

I don't think I presented it as a standard - just what the major PKI
clients that most users interact with on a daily basis do.

I didn't suggest it was the whole Internet. But for the PKI that people
rely on for their daily interactions online (aka the Web PKI), which is
used far beyond *just* web browsers (as reminds us), the security here
is relevant, and perhaps essentially so.

>  and there are
>  standard's track extensions which can address the issue [0] and can
>  allow the server to decide which path to send. Does your good for
>  Internet implementation utilize it?
>  [0].

There are no plans at present to implement, and it's unlikely we would.
Without wanting to get into a separate discussion, the privacy and
performance implications of such an extension are extremely undesirable.

Just because there's a Standards Track I-D doesn't mean it is wise or
desirable ( is another example), and
just because it's an Informational Draft doesn't mean it's not widely
supported (CryptoAPI, Java, and NSS, for example, all follow the logic of

If I phrased your concern more objectively, would ubiquitous support
"tomorrow" for RFC 6066 cause me to remove support for relaxing the
language? No, because we still have the world we live in today. And having
spec language reflect an idealized, unrealistic future instead of the
reality we live in just does more harm than good. Much like references to
the X.500 Global Directory.