Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests
Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> Tue, 21 January 2020 17:44 UTC
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From: Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests
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On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 07:17:05AM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I agree with Martin that this is unnecessary complexity. The objections stated are non-responsive, and dismiss a valid use-case. There is ZERO additional complexity. - Servers will already range-check the requested ticket count and impose some local policy limit. Treating a request for 255 as "no tickets please" is NOT complex. - Clients that want fresh tickets will send the same request they already would have but capped at 254 instead of 255 tickets. That's NOT complex. My proposal only excludes 255 as a valid ticket count. Nobody can justifiably insist that it is essential for servers to be able to vend up to exactly 255 (and not up to 254) tickets. The extension as *currently* formulated breaks ticket re-use when employed, it is not possible for a client to signal that it would prefer to re-use its ticket. When the extension is not sent, the server can't distinguish between clients that have not yet adopted it, and clients that wish re-use tickets, so has to make the wrong guess for at least one of the two cases. > In addition, I would note that switching to a new ticket *does* help even > if the server is using the same STEK because it improves privacy. But, as I've explained already, SMTP MTAs are a legitimate use case in which privacy is explicitly not expected. * SMTP MTAs do not and cannot expect privacy against network-layer traffic analysis. They operate from fixed IPs, with PTRs mapping back to their hostnames, whose "reputation" they rely on for deliverability, and announce their identity in 220 greetings, EHLO commands and EHLO responses in the clear! [VALID USE CASE] * My proposal, does not FORCE anyone to use either of the special values 0 or 255, they can still ask for 1..254 tickets, with *zero* change of behaviour. Only clients that want to not get a ticket at all, or not get one every time, are affected by the change. Other clients do nothing different, they just send an extension asking for a number of tickets in [1,254]. [ZERO COST TO PRIVACY USE CASE] * All servers have to do is: - Send [1,254] (likely fewer at the high end) tickets when that many are requested, as before. [ With or without my proposal, they'll still do a range check of some sort to compare with their local policy limits. ] - Send no tickets when 255 are requested, a negligible adjustment to their range check. - Send 1 ticket when 0 are requested and they don't support re-use, or the received ticket is invalid (support for ticket re-use which worked - send 0 tickets are 0 are requested and the received ticket is still valid. [ZERO COST TO SERVER USE CASE, plus makes possible to signal and support ticket reuse] It is unjust to deny a ZERO COST valid use-case just because that's not the use-case one is most familiar with. This is the TLS working group, not the browser HTTPS working group, and needs to be open to more than than one use-case. -- Viktor.
- [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Jeremy Harris
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests David Schinazi
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests David Schinazi
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests David Schinazi
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Ben Schwartz
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Ben Schwartz
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Jeremy Harris
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni