Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1)
"Kemp, David P." <DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil> Tue, 11 May 2010 21:22 UTC
Return-Path: <DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil>
X-Original-To: tls@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D27B3A6A40 for <tls@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 11 May 2010 14:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.154
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.154 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.155, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hDsuPX67R2lx for <tls@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 11 May 2010 14:22:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from stingray.missi.ncsc.mil (stingray.missi.ncsc.mil [144.51.50.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04FB63A6942 for <tls@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 May 2010 14:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:16:34 -0400
Message-ID: <201005112120.o4BLKLRL016765@stingray.missi.ncsc.mil>
In-Reply-To: <4BE9A1BD.9010905@extendedsubset.com>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1)
Thread-Index: AcrxOCxXY5CzAmJJSbG2pEgds3u+TwAEXShA
References: <87bpcn4cy6.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <C80E5AA0.AB38%stefan@aaa-sec.com><87bpcm3m2w.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <4BE9A1BD.9010905@extendedsubset.com>
From: "Kemp, David P." <DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil>
To: tls@ietf.org
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2010 21:21:34.0000 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE86C300:01CAF14F]
Subject: Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1)
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:22:18 -0000
The security analysis should focus on the bizarre Finished message calculation rather than on the hash algorithm. The essence of caching is that cached data has the same effect as transmitted data, only faster :-). Section 4 violates that assumption: "The handshake protocol will proceed using the cached data as if it was provided in the handshake protocol. The Finished message will however be calculated over the actual data exchanged in the handshake protocol." If the Finished message is not calculated as if the data were actually transmitted, then it cannot ensure the integrity of that data. Strike the second sentence and the problem goes away. The transmitter has to perform Finished calculations on the original datastream, then post-process it to substitute hashes where possible. The receiver first has to expand hashes into data, and then perform handshake operations including Finished calculations. Dave -----Original Message----- From: tls-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Marsh Ray Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:28 PM To: Simon Josefsson Cc: tls@ietf.org Subject: [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1) Importance: Low On 5/11/2010 2:59 AM, Simon Josefsson wrote: > > I'm thinking about two scenarios: > > 1) the undetectable modification of the list of acceptable CA names > cause the client to select and use an unintended certificate. > > 2) where multiple server certificates can be used to successfully > establish the key. That can happen if two certificates use the same > public key. Once connected, the client will not know the server by > the same identity (certificate) as the server believe the client > used. Frankly, this scares the hell out of me. I admit now that part of why I supported the simple 'hashtable' function was to ensure that this aspect got thoroughly analyzed. > This is not an problem in the sense that an attacker gains some benefit > (for 1 the client chose to proceed with the certificate Hmm, this could enable an attacker to influence the client to choose a client cert using different information than the server thought he sent, and in a way which doesn't break the Finished hashes? Let's say I have separate "administrator" and "normal user" client certs, both recognized by a server. Could mitm trick me into authing with the admin cert even if the server app didn't intend to ask for it? Note MS IIS has a feature for client-cert-to-user mapping, so theoretically that could end up running code with different actual user permissions. > and for 2 the > attacker needs to know the private key of the server): instead I'm > pointing at a semantic problem because, with the extension, the > historically true invariant that the client, after handshake, will know > which certificate the server used, does not hold strongly. > > This doesn't necessarily have to affect the document in any way, but it > is an interesting property. Historically, it has turned out to be notoriously difficult to put limits on the effects of a violated security guarantee. We may not be so familiar with all the dependencies and assumptions made in the original analysis that we can run through them backwards. I recommend we walk through the security analysis on this again from scratch. This time with extra focus on an attacker who can trivially craft collisions. Also, we should look into how this might interact with running multiple servers on the same IP address (and same stack) using SNI. Sometimes things that are secure in isolation do not produce a secure system when composed. - Marsh _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Robert Dugal
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Paul Hoffman
- [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1) Nicolas Williams
- [TLS] Nico's suggestions - Re: Consensus Call: FN… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re: Co… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1) Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Hovav Shacham
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Nic… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Nic… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Con… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Con… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Justification Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Justification Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Justification Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Con… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Adam Langley
- [TLS] Use HTTP (Re: Justification) Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Justification Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Justification Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Justification Dean Anderson
- [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Martin Rex
- [TLS] Possible alternative to current cached info… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info (and PRF WTF) Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info (and PRF WTF) Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info (and PRF WTF) Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams