Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> Tue, 01 December 2020 00:32 UTC
Return-Path: <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109463A12B9 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 16:32:04 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.917
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9LQxD8RcUdc for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 16:32:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from au-smtp-delivery-117.mimecast.com (au-smtp-delivery-117.mimecast.com [124.47.189.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A3DF3A12AF for <tls@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 16:32:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from AUS01-SY4-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sy4aus01lp2174.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.71.174]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id au-mta-88-4WA12uxvP_uO2Y3N2LmMWg-1; Tue, 01 Dec 2020 11:30:09 +1100
X-MC-Unique: 4WA12uxvP_uO2Y3N2LmMWg-1
Received: from PSXP216CA0036.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:300:5::22) by MEXPR01MB1317.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:200:33::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3611.23; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 00:30:04 +0000
Received: from PU1APC01FT043.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (2603:1096:300:5:cafe::37) by PSXP216CA0036.outlook.office365.com (2603:1096:300:5::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3611.20 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 00:30:03 +0000
X-MS-Exchange-Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is 130.216.95.208) smtp.mailfrom=cs.auckland.ac.nz; ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.auckland.ac.nz
Received: from uxcn13-ogg-e.UoA.auckland.ac.nz (130.216.95.208) by PU1APC01FT043.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.253.6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.3611.23 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 00:30:02 +0000
Received: from uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz (10.6.2.5) by uxcn13-ogg-e.UoA.auckland.ac.nz (10.6.2.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 13:30:00 +1300
Received: from uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.5]) by uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.5]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.007; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 13:30:00 +1300
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org>, "tls-chairs@ietf.org" <tls-chairs@ietf.org>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
Thread-Index: AQHWtuemkBcnxjhwjkukZnBJ0gfqXKnb932AgAD1RoCABJdrIQ==
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 00:29:59 +0000
Message-ID: <1606782600388.62069@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <160496076356.8063.5138064792555453422@ietfa.amsl.com> <49d045a3-db46-3250-9587-c4680ba386ed@network-heretics.com>, <b5314e17-645a-22ea-3ce9-78f208630ae1@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <b5314e17-645a-22ea-3ce9-78f208630ae1@cs.tcd.ie>
Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-GB, en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [130.216.158.4]
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 00f7bc7d-0636-431c-ce29-08d895903e60
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: MEXPR01MB1317:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <MEXPR01MB1317611C3F89BBCB5CE75653EEF40@MEXPR01MB1317.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: tr5wbWkQEcG7+CJkf0D5HlCFB83RrjsfSIV8kIwj6fMA+yuWzjbGcvtcNJkAWmEiwwiDWz7Xa1aFm4FSrpHchy6Xz96h1JuoZNQLZ3mbWoh/N8vkd3RKKA8JFkHZuE+cANRFynuEx0t2JybJSf65J2Js7cIbL1CgkCiIkWkiv5s0PVXPrJkQTDVl6K3CH5ITQ0Kea4KBXSxKl+GapGB/C31podFUFRsDnGSWpcPPZxoFvItVqyVEYcpmvKBDWUP0zJNjm2UtZGU+U+LrapFId+e1SZOWOYbrrAxrMooua72YjR5RGMl+O5M1SSLWSdsqpa+9AexkFZ1WpF9IHrRgTbTz2GM0FbbvDoMqOIUOLgUSWGEp/NOjASufI88/w5SCNL6uHAdb1E4RZ6ZTjCEKBQ==
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:130.216.95.208; CTRY:NZ; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:uxcn13-ogg-e.UoA.auckland.ac.nz; PTR:natgate1-1.auckland.ac.nz; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(39860400002)(136003)(346002)(376002)(46966005)(2616005)(26005)(186003)(336012)(70586007)(83380400001)(66574015)(54906003)(110136005)(82310400003)(36906005)(786003)(316002)(5660300002)(70206006)(478600001)(4326008)(356005)(82740400003)(2906002)(7636003)(86362001)(8676002)(47076004)(8936002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.auckland.ac.nz
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2020 00:30:02.3408 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 00f7bc7d-0636-431c-ce29-08d895903e60
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d1b36e95-0d50-42e9-958f-b63fa906beaa
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=d1b36e95-0d50-42e9-958f-b63fa906beaa; Ip=[130.216.95.208]; Helo=[uxcn13-ogg-e.UoA.auckland.ac.nz]
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PU1APC01FT043.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MEXPR01MB1317
Authentication-Results: relay.mimecast.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=CAU17A13 smtp.mailfrom=pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0
X-Mimecast-Originator: cs.auckland.ac.nz
Content-Language: en-NZ
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/3d-T8ZMb2w_z94kXDk72lPIdQVQ>
Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls/>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 00:32:04 -0000
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes: >In earlier iterations of the draft we included some survey results for TLS >version usage in web, mail and OSes. I think your argument to special-case >embedded systems or systems without s/w update would be a lot stronger if you >or someone else had data to offer about the prevalence of these systems and >the TLS versions they support. That's more or less impossible since they're invisible to the public Internet. Or at least they're supposed to be, large numbers of them are publicly visible when they shouldn't be, but in any case at best you're going to get a lot of anecdotal evidence rather than anything comprehensive. However I think your comment points out the overall problem: usage in web, mail and OSes This means there's no consideration at all of use in embedded/SCADA/whatever. So I think the text should include wording to the effect that it applies to public Internet use but not to embedded/SCADA/etc for which very different considerations apply. For example the issue in the previous message with regard to the CA/B BR is mutually exclusive with embedded use, systems like that will pretty much never see a cert from a CA/B CA. Conversely, they'll have certs for RFC 1918 addresses and EUIs and whatnot which shouldn't (but probably have been) issued by public CAs. Peter.
- [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-depr… The IESG
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Gary Gapinski
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Nick Lamb
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Martin Duke
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ben Smyth
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Joe Abley
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Gary Gapinski
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Andrew Campling
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Results of Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldve… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Gary Gapinski
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch