[TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
"D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to> Fri, 10 October 2025 16:02 UTC
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Subject: [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
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Andrei Popov writes:
> There are regulatory requirements that require NIST curves, whether
> one likes them or not.
Can you please point to the "regulatory requirements" you have in mind,
and explain why you believe that the requirements prohibit X25519MLKEM*?
Some reasons that I'm skeptical that there's an important issue here:
* Reportedly >80% of TLS is already using X25519.
* Reportedly ~40% of clients and ~30% of servers already implement
the X25519MLKEM768 option in this draft, while ~0% implement the
other options in this draft.
* My understanding is that NIST now approves hybrids of _anything_
(as an "OtherInput" inside a hash) with ML-KEM, although I haven't
checked the details here.
Sources:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/lWh_uimMIgQ6SMV_BSkJDh34eQM/
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/vWAEg7E3jeLZjLABVaMVLR0flX4/
https://radar.cloudflare.com/adoption-and-usage#post-quantum-encryption-adoption
https://www.netmeister.org/blog/pqc-use-2025-03.html
https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-227.pdf
---D. J. Bernstein
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- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hy… Joseph Salowey
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… David Adrian
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… tirumal reddy
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Thom Wiggers
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: [External⚠️] Re: Working Group Last Cal… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Martin Thomson
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Dennis Jackson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Joseph Birr-Pixton
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Robert Relyea
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Sophie Schmieg
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Christopher Patton
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Appeal Response to Rob Sayre - was Re: Re: … Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: Appeal Response to Rob Sayre - was Re: … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Robert Relyea
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Sophie Schmieg
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Joseph Salowey