Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying Material Exporters for Transport Layer Security (TLS)) to Proposed Standard
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> Wed, 22 July 2009 22:22 UTC
Return-Path: <rms@gnu.org>
X-Original-To: tls@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B6A28C15A; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3j+AegoRGkk; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:22:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A5D28C132; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:22:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from <rms@gnu.org>) id 1MTkBi-0007Gi-5e; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:21:26 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"
From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: Nicolas Williams <Nicolas.Williams@sun.com>
In-reply-to: <20090721195028.GQ1020@Sun.COM> (message from Nicolas Williams on Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:50:28 -0500)
References: <026364d64021d6cef8b930cf16df1221.squirrel@www.trepanning.net> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0907201645020.16218-100000@citation2.av8.net> <20090721195028.GQ1020@Sun.COM>
Message-Id: <E1MTkBi-0007Gi-5e@fencepost.gnu.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:21:26 -0400
Cc: tls@ietf.org, ietf-honest@lists.iadl.org, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying Material Exporters for Transport Layer Security (TLS)) to Proposed Standard
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: rms@gnu.org
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:22:16 -0000
The IPR applies to Since we're talking about patents, calling them "IPR" just introduces gratuitous vagueness. Patent law and copyright law have very little in common, so lumping them together is basically a mistake. And there are a dozen other areas of laws which you're generalizing about each time you say "IPR". See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.html for more explaation of why the term "intellectual property" is harmful. If you call them "patents", it takes 4 more characters and avoids the confusion. So the real question is this: Suppose you have an implementation of TLS that has a license to Certicom's ECC patents, and suppose that you have an application that uses draft-ietf-tls-extractor, and the application does not have its own license to Certicom's ECC patents -- is the application then infringing Certicom's patents? (An analogous question about copyrights would not be meaningful or interesting, because copyright does totally different things.) I don't know the answer to that question, but I can follow you in considering the consequences of a possible yes answer. However if the answer is yes, then the TLS implementation must not export the TLS extractor to applications when doing so would cause the applications to infringe. There is no technical way that the TLS implementation can tell whether the application has a patent license. That could be changed from the day to the next, by the actions of lawyers and businessmen, without any change in the code of the application. So the question that would follow is, what good is a standard which people are free to implement in a library, but cannot actually use without asking permission?
- [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying… The IESG
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dan Harkins
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Douglas Stebila
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Matthew Campagna
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Matthew Campagna
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Todd Glassey
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Todd Glassey
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Noel Chiappa
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… David Morris
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Lawrence Rosen
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor(Key… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Stephen Kent
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Pasi.Eronen
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- [TLS] Archiving IETF IPR documents was Re: Last C… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman