Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3
Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Thu, 13 November 2014 19:42 UTC
Return-Path: <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48CE1ACE3E for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:42:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x9Jh8WCIPCsY for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:41:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-yk0-x22d.google.com (mail-yk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D65671ACE21 for <tls@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:41:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-yk0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 19so754553ykq.4 for <tls@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:41:58 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=BwJtuCzaN4sHjyBkaBDWkGRSVtu1Z4GqT9kFgyJY5F8=; b=IOpoZnRKjRK9h4DC35oG2M8XIDUsTplcXquOCK7BKpbE9t3Zrs6/CpaThqUUMiKiFa CVhL/EiZErYTpgaKdzsB121+zIAS9TSNFWPhAo216QRPeUwMKAXfy5LTuDHjLYeW+H8P 9Xuueqdn5jU0R6orlshccogCWnL8AmPdPz7OkyE9Cs2sslYmvLz9FnNJ2YvDMRibcvf6 DSX3pMw65+PS0bwwSrCfuucOW/DMQZVONzYF8tvhtWLOtuWrvb8DfUgHu/ougg8GYouz 73zCgMpqysBe8qzlr/jw0IMFQe7Kbo1tW48ba9cT4ULza4HcyTiYxD9uqCw+FEhg/cQ8 s08g==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.236.11.19 with SMTP id 19mr5457939yhw.4.1415907718077; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:41:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.170.195.203 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:41:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.170.195.203 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:41:57 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <2A0EFB9C05D0164E98F19BB0AF3708C71D50B356CE@USMBX1.msg.corp.akamai.com>
References: <CABkgnnXWAZ78ir-62cnsZM080GAFzScNSv52SKGAc6ZRYM+++w@mail.gmail.com> <CACsn0c=nh1yDUcYGYSMBhUs0OnJJJeOh5CRT3qyz8ZEVQsdokA@mail.gmail.com> <54615526.5020504@fifthhorseman.net> <20141111005220.GG3412@localhost> <8C76E955-0942-4343-B044-8E490C6264FB@gmail.com> <20141111021201.GH3412@localhost> <5461A3DD.4030102@fifthhorseman.net> <CADi0yUO4Q8=FkmAXH0na2gd6MADb4JSCGUGju7mYYm-qxqEKQw@mail.gmail.com> <20141111173325.GK3412@localhost> <4008860D-58A7-4A48-A4FC-A5823D94B791@gmail.com> <20141111203740.GN3412@localhost> <CADi0yUOELWqkOrrYh24Kcaiz8h27DxC=a5X4piLwxyr2N-1SqQ@mail.gmail.com> <CACsn0c=J-0sB5uyBBuf9tqmviD2CGF3e+PhQt_gcxm2EQfcfjw@mail.gmail.com> <CADi0yUOxahwQxyhOd+W1N=Crz5eL8_p8H4OHwUNgDOrSgU5HSA@mail.gmail.com> <2A0EFB9C05D0164E98F19BB0AF3708C71D50B356CE@USMBX1.msg.corp.akamai.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:41:57 -0800
Message-ID: <CACsn0c=-XK2aH58dN-+8_zJYQsO0U+bhZSRrJ5tiCzPREn0WUQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
To: Rich Salz <rsalz@akamai.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113674469222a00507c2b43e"
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/4Yuu6jjdn_b4uW5ZoS_AGkhJS6s
Cc: tls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 19:42:04 -0000
On Nov 13, 2014 10:18 AM, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote: > > I think the major concern is that this is a pretty radical change from the current deployment model of SSL/TLS. For what it's worth, I think it's cool and clever and has a number of real nice properties. But we are already getting 'picked on' for adding too many new things, and I am concerned that adding this, fairly late in the game, will delay the deployment of TLS 1.3 as people will take a step back and consider if they really need to use this revolutionary new protocol, rather than the evolutionary changes they were expecting. > > I used my personal opinion here, but I feel pretty comfortable saying I'm not the only one who feels this way. It's a case of "too much, too late." > > Does that make sense? > > Can we wrap up TLS 1.3 and perhaps do a TLS 2 based on these concepts, including a non-CA trust model? Wrap up what exactly? The TLS 1.3 draft as it stands has had very little security analysis applied. Important questions remain to be resolved. It's already a major change from TLS 1.2 and increasingly so as more gets reworked. OPTLS is not something to be added as an option on top of whatever else we want. It's a protocol that solves the problems TLS 1.3 was intended to solve, and to do so with a design that takes advantage of our knowledge of security analysis. Whatever deployment issues exist will exist for TLS 1.3: reuse of TCP connections reduces the impact of latency. TLS 2 could do a lot more for security: use formal languages to make parsing easy, make implementation simplicity a priority. I doubt the IETF ever could achieve this: we had IRC and now have XMPP, to name the most egregious example. While you can use a different deployment model you don't have to: certs can be put on all frontend machines exactly as now. As for non-CA trust model, I'm not sure we have a good one that includes all uses of TLS: I'd like to know what you propose, but I'm not sure this list is the place. Sincerely, Watson Ladd > > /r$ > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list >TLS@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Andy Lutomirski
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Andy Lutomirski
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Dan Brown
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk