[TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (Ends 2025-11-26)
"D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to> Thu, 27 November 2025 11:04 UTC
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From: "D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>
To: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem@ietf.org, tls-chairs@ietf.org, tls@ietf.org
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Subject: [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (Ends 2025-11-26)
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Benjamin Kaduk writes:
> And I assume that the bit where ML-KEM-768 is approximately 3% faster than
> X25519 plus ML-KDM-768 is for a microbenchmark scenario where we are just doing
> key exchanges and nothing else, so may end up in the noise for some traffic
> patterns
I thought you were asking for the key-exchange timings?
I fully agree that applications are normally doing things other than key
exchange. Looking at current numbers shows that pervasive ECC usage is a
tiny part of total costs---which to me says that _of course_ we should
keep ECC unless and until there's an overwhelming case for removing it.
For example, in 2024, only about 1 out of every 2000 CPU cycles at Meta
was spent on ECC:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250906094758/https://engineering.fb.com/2024/11/12/security/how-meta-built-large-scale-cryptographic-monitoring/
More precisely, what they said is that they spent "0.05%" of cycles on
"X25519 key exchange". This will be close to their total ECC cost, given
the very large fraction of TLS connections that use X25519:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250317194150/https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/pQRDJ9MBwnmLHp86Zvs_CfYUFaY/
https://web.archive.org/web/20250414193700/https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/vWAEg7E3jeLZjLABVaMVLR0flX4/
https://web.archive.org/web/20250413183440/https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/lWh_uimMIgQ6SMV_BSkJDh34eQM/
I find it striking that they portrayed this tiny fraction of Meta's
overall costs as a big expense, with words such as "the sheer volume of
usage". I understand the perspective of a cryptographic engineer happily
saying something like "I saved the company a million dollars", but it's
important to ask whether a cost improvement is coming at the expense of
security. A security incident can easily cause the company vastly more
damage---even ignoring the broader societal damage beyond what companies
end up paying for. This is why, for example,
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevemorgan/2016/01/27/bank-of-americas-unlimited-cybersecurity-budget-sums-up-spending-plans-in-a-war-against-hackers/
reported the Bank of America CEO saying in 2015 that "the only place in
the company that didn't have a budget constraint was cybersecurity".
---D. J. Bernstein
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- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… David Adrian
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Rebecca Guthrie
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Flo D
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Kazuho Oku
- [TLS] Fwd: Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem… Keegan Dasilva Barbosa
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Bob Beck
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Russ Housley
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Wang Guilin
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Kurt Roeckx
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Benjamin Kaduk
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Benjamin Kaduk
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Benjamin Kaduk
- [TLS] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (Ends… Sean Turner via Datatracker
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… richard
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Benjamin Kaduk
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Deployability claims D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-05 (… Joseph Salowey