[TLS]Re: Consensus call for RFC8773bis Formal Analysis Requirement

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Mon, 26 August 2024 22:46 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7B3C151539 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Aug 2024 15:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.008
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.008 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XCE3Zvp8udAM for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Aug 2024 15:46:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR02-AM0-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am0eur02on2103.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.247.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51372C151099 for <tls@ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Aug 2024 15:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector10001; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=BT0pi1pB/WHNRxJojvk9jRAU8OSaAK/+rG7Z13IvJ8H21Y7WBWwEUh4w3lZXieIsEL3Y8bxnnMbny9Abm6a/r1q5njyRwE93bh7/xFtmmq51amj+K9zv6TN2GUjD9HkSvAHonTWk2w6P5AUipfLv3ukKwhO0T94c4+Sm/LIHaM1+sEhOd1raw/nEDihVEts2kG7CHZNEKlJY1gEWXOFrpmmI3v3psommcHKT4LoRH7Dg+Yxtq3vCo9tXYRQLeoKOQNsgjJt3C04uvTeawWyai4OT26MfxxGlx9h44FVgiVPujytBUvsd4khm31IQ6sRdwU9PyTLpxCQCFmOfWxNdXw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector10001; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=gDJsut9cSP399qVWOR19kYyD/qUronQ41j2ewlQFbIk=; b=zADDrE9XHc/sUaY00i8TPnntFKGp/Qydr5E5HGy3k80/r6O2vPDnJjksylH298EiP5CQAemtKjEzgFFfcVinvPPI/AqNFDNv8fGtAWuFfSgBZgeT5gF0kd/6elmOENeBSezQ/jT3drqbUhtHLEinZIBOrYUJPPbehKe9gg0RHdzri0b8Kmd+QM3/wJlRe2/aedoiPW2P7EIEVIQUSMhQI/95eLvvjFygwPB8+7putySp/A31HRkUMV4A95vlCNddmEC1yKOEXa7qqFKgXAPqMwYhgzxEpQBW34NWRFIhJEndlqWRpBopAtOOpJxDrk4LluTPxNMO5xZi052ARrnPxA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=gDJsut9cSP399qVWOR19kYyD/qUronQ41j2ewlQFbIk=; b=B+WYhFgk3XhtxU8SGud+QRprA05+XLLUF5seKLj5CO0gyMF6e60NTHBKnaaPzL2EK8ev08e8f5IlDaBuGO87FI6+khXZSEJSIjsWvxuWyLpZW5FILsQczRyUgHOViykembj16wggwLTrDDHWkn+8BRRP35Xil4STNC7vy79UdD3YGkAKEh8BJJvFWNQ5QTyElG+nmX0T+Fnu11RaaD5L/+cVbishcgdhCezFd17tY3OvTij0MVrOgrWBRzMhjjfTQPpFofNZ3XlUcSTQadK0RklpC9rvnOHAW3WqcBMxZCzFsgyQL1Br5p/zaChJv31OskU80MfW6ABaa4mrn8cxrg==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from VI1PR02MB5949.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:131::12) by AS8PR02MB6869.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:253::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7897.25; Mon, 26 Aug 2024 22:46:00 +0000
Received: from VI1PR02MB5949.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f06c:8b25:eb03:27cc]) by VI1PR02MB5949.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f06c:8b25:eb03:27cc%5]) with mapi id 15.20.7897.021; Mon, 26 Aug 2024 22:46:00 +0000
Message-ID: <42b1b48a-b641-44f9-b4e5-137f401bcfec@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2024 23:45:57 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Deirdre Connolly <durumcrustulum@gmail.com>
References: <1E84DBF8-CA48-4CA9-A435-9E61E981D8DF@akamai.com> <6284E288-4F8E-4E2A-8335-5054D9D7A6DF@obtuse.com> <CAFR824xAxfUFrXyo5PZckJPqoM3fU8ESNrDHUfOKNzDF_jJZQA@mail.gmail.com> <A5E3474B-E3D5-4DA2-BCAD-D443B2A02B5A@akamai.com> <CAFR824y=stSf28Lt=bDoM2yCOHMAEt2OsaFPAY7dxGjx+-DHug@mail.gmail.com> <B7872890-71F2-41BC-9ED9-F085CB18FA95@akamai.com>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; keydata= xjMEY9GzphYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAo6JvjmSbxHdQWPZdvciQYsHhM1NxQBU398Mmimoy4p7N M1N0ZXBoZW4gRmFycmVsbCAoMjU1MTkpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsKQ BBMWCAA4FiEEMG54R8tZDyZFrDOn5Njp+ZeoM90FAmPRs6YCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYC AwECHgECF4AACgkQ5Njp+ZeoM93bogEA25ElRyX0wwg+kGEN1AoL60MoZfvQZ/VtmXY6IC5j +csBAIBpkL5ySuzJK2zLNZn9qQGht8IaUcA7cvDcLvS2uHUEzjgEY9GzphIKKwYBBAGXVQEF AQEHQILCPWOwW36e8D3pY8GmvvtItIT+A5uV80ist+WokVsQAwEIB8J4BBgWCAAgFiEEMG54 R8tZDyZFrDOn5Njp+ZeoM90FAmPRs6YCGwwACgkQ5Njp+ZeoM92bcAEA8R+8cpqRUIS+SoAN iO05xE6O/wEx8/e88BqzAYki3SoBAOQdwiPX+MQrAxkWD8xxOsdMOAtxYKpkD1n8aPJUw6QJ
In-Reply-To: <B7872890-71F2-41BC-9ED9-F085CB18FA95@akamai.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------hCDjaRWTWBYssWyL50NfEE9T"
X-ClientProxiedBy: LO4P265CA0256.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:37c::16) To VI1PR02MB5949.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:131::12)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR02MB5949:EE_|AS8PR02MB6869:EE_
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 1d96de68-0717-4dee-289e-08dcc620db12
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|376014|1800799024|366016;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:VI1PR02MB5949.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(376014)(1800799024)(366016);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1d96de68-0717-4dee-289e-08dcc620db12
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR02MB5949.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2024 22:46:00.1241 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: j88Z0ECgq/53owLdHGT+Fxtn9fv/xc8vs1dX20y/h5nAEojTgAnMDu4iJPv0oznh
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS8PR02MB6869
Message-ID-Hash: ETTRR3PSNNMO7MMLJR45P3EOYFOZ44UP
X-Message-ID-Hash: ETTRR3PSNNMO7MMLJR45P3EOYFOZ44UP
X-MailFrom: stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "TLS@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS]Re: Consensus call for RFC8773bis Formal Analysis Requirement
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/7vqhYRE66MHpaSVl5kUqFA354UY>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>

WRT the draft, yes I think more formal analysis is likely
warranted.

WRT Rich's complaint: I think the chairs would be wise to try
to explicitly address the points he makes and that were raised
at the IETF-120 session. I got the distinct impression that
a bunch of active WG participants were not happy with the state
of the triage panel thing, and also the distinct impression
that the chairs weren't quite grokking that. (It can be hard to
pickup the overall message from the front of the room sometimes.)

My take on the panel is roughly: yes, I don't get why there seems
no desire to collaborate with ufmrg (but I'm biased there:-), and
I also think that the anonymity thing means we shouldn't take
panel comments as seriously as ones made in public - but there
is nothing preventing the chairs from encouraging panel members to
just copy the list with their comments as the norm and handle any
situation where someone can't do that as an exception. (I've also,
as a sorta-bogus member of the the CFRG crypto panel, seen some
issues with people taking CFRG crypto panel output more seriously
than sometimes warranted - many of those reviews are very good,
but not all are equal, and those reviews are not as directly
affecting the IETF standards process, so what's ok there may not
be ok here.)

Cheers,
S.