[TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draft-ietf-tls-tls12-frozen-07: (with COMMENT)
Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> Mon, 09 June 2025 13:29 UTC
Return-Path: <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD3A32AB401 for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Jun 2025 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.998
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.auckland.ac.nz
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dzZxvtEONZ9 for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Jun 2025 06:29:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from SY2PR01CU004.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-australiaeastazon11021128.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.39.128]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB82532AB3E7 for <tls@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Jun 2025 06:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector10001; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=QdQue0wd0dGL7bcc8i1Fv+QzEQRrm63/k7VfMAM7WNs/2fvc8Zn3X24hp673cTFaNYJJcamjxWqAijCn+9LQtPkoTX7mz28lCOlV1tSPdrbPi1r2hFNtj/vc0FN45E3zHPWXNhgW9ihsNKs2KItoS1kEVDql/oVR/seSXsbGagbdd5NRjTtS7mMwmCA3dAMavfGUWSAAhfW76HETAM5PXwhyNuqvgOnnqlK396177I9K3qS2liwzAVZwy8vhsRM6867PW9aW88l7zFcw3OgHUYHy/7w8ubmuhkJb4agHO32R+3kPmuiYZ10TgSj9LUQXfjlrIJxj79x8jIUkU2UIWA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector10001; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=VR+SwvNMi6kQ6uM08R6+tVATRLR41YYbY51v5LFJ/Gc=; b=ONjS2K35HUjH5XzUnuHZyIWKAV0qp5hZl84b/0AvBr3kWAiISIPL0obrCiAaoV5Z7dZfBclbiU7+q41YD1bAmP4lN/wTNzticuCTIJ282gAb06tTlCj6Ro81wXD5XuOfVUhicgWDW/4euGhFWML2+wM3TYoaKF9k5NCwhGCMiB0Jlh1JnrIi36hxgwsB6qx68s78ypRP54wLVkE0SF4X3wupAn9Dy2rjf/y8wc0du/Yu46I6t+g+TxXolv1FW4EORD22sJ5Az5B0A/yBWIboqN3+6ST+GB6A4emSwLL1cGCla92P6vwLoEKjPJG5ARvb2GlvSMfBgn413TNM6PRAwQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.auckland.ac.nz; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.auckland.ac.nz; dkim=pass header.d=cs.auckland.ac.nz; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.auckland.ac.nz; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VR+SwvNMi6kQ6uM08R6+tVATRLR41YYbY51v5LFJ/Gc=; b=WcRLSG2WGeMwyqS/djhR8Il3pHIB+EROyy+cll1Ft0poWhjpg87qOH+k1bpaexcNViJx9WPagthRUTwjffUCz3J7qr+eIiQMpQO7YX+rxvMY8+rURqVKjlLZAGwD+VkXP/WGRA4KhfsrxebUbTo6BitUpN5XnRGD0vHqHGa1VtRRSRS/r7lvlGcRWuTUKJa35DDA6zNq1UqAB6zZWOBpFV5wK8B87tThsGb6SoZwc1KR52wctDrMOfm+E7gki/o2vmtkztSdtPvjo8hteSwdTAski3eJ7Qv9pocCo2EcxdyA8GAwGWKiG8tYdoHXIcXfYZmbS7E9nEMacDE/5UHFfQ==
Received: from ME0P300MB0713.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10c6:220:229::18) by ME0P300MB0425.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10c6:220:229::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.8813.27; Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:29:00 +0000
Received: from ME0P300MB0713.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::2b6:430a:4d2a:5c52]) by ME0P300MB0713.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::2b6:430a:4d2a:5c52%2]) with mapi id 15.20.8813.024; Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:29:00 +0000
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draft-ietf-tls-tls12-frozen-07: (with COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AdvWPK0ER7y6F/d5R5qpnj1OJ0qhQQAC1LEAAFYwhZkACruOgABdnDhf
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2025 13:29:00 +0000
Message-ID: <ME0P300MB0713C94AF94ED149C8ED034FEE6BA@ME0P300MB0713.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <a6dfaeec1f3f412a9231fe0ad0d9881c@bofa.com> <CABcZeBOpH1pMYWzRS=qNmOKbFQTA+CxCUQ2CcKBMsvS0xMsn2Q@mail.gmail.com> <ME0P300MB0713D6E2282DE1B36F273AA6EE69A@ME0P300MB0713.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <CABcZeBNd+L0N3gcXBOPwN-E-e68QDb5G1SDCTHMKCG=PkWmiBg@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBNd+L0N3gcXBOPwN-E-e68QDb5G1SDCTHMKCG=PkWmiBg@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-US
Content-Language: en-NZ
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
msip_labels:
authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.auckland.ac.nz;
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: ME0P300MB0713:EE_|ME0P300MB0425:EE_
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e598d88d-2624-4358-bdd1-08dda7599864
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|1800799024|376014|366016|38070700018;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:ME0P300MB0713.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(1800799024)(376014)(366016)(38070700018);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.auckland.ac.nz
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: ME0P300MB0713.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e598d88d-2624-4358-bdd1-08dda7599864
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Jun 2025 13:29:00.6532 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: d1b36e95-0d50-42e9-958f-b63fa906beaa
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Pt/d8P00PG/L4VJcNQVhCJ/CN1d2/TZB7wYhgj72vOBPhtR8Jrzyy0p1BwfJWHb38pBAfTqCaQRvOFMp1GTCVBzhgb2AbVwINzo9+bICzSs=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: ME0P300MB0425
Message-ID-Hash: X3YFXXQ5WBD62FQMMVJW4CRD5SIB46ZR
X-Message-ID-Hash: X3YFXXQ5WBD62FQMMVJW4CRD5SIB46ZR
X-MailFrom: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "Arano, Edward" <edward.arano=40bofa.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draft-ietf-tls-tls12-frozen-07: (with COMMENT)
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/8vmyx8Pe7k3n2IYG4udOJyhjiiU>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> writes: >This is a somewhat clearly unspecified set, and in the first sentence (which >you trimmed for some reason), I explicitly express some concern about this >ambiguity. That's not really helping your case. The bit I cut (the OP's text and the start of yours) to avoid quoting a huge block of text never mentioned the web, or anything else specific, but adding that to the quoted text would emphasise even more that you responded to a nonspecific comment with a reply that assumed that nothing apart from the web exists. Your "explicitly expressed concern" just says "I assume everyone's using a web browser" ("Under the assumption you mean "our customers", then those people are probably coming in via a Web browser") which is exactly the point I was making: The assumption is that if someone is using TLS then it must be web use. Nothing else gets any consideration, and the WG has been like that for years (with a token acknowledgement of use by telcos because they're big enough that you can't really ignore them). Peter.
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Ketan Talaulikar
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Deb Cooley
- [TLS] Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draft-ie… Ketan Talaulikar via Datatracker
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Arano, Edward
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Ketan Talaulikar
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Deb Cooley
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Ketan Talaulikar
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Arano, Edward
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Kathleen Moriarty
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Achim Kraus
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Martin Thomson
- [TLS] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's No Objection on draf… Kathleen Moriarty