Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Thu, 23 January 2020 00:55 UTC
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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 18:55:49 -0600
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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/9ki7NP9it_UbdD9fJDf_QXDqzz8>
Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests
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On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 06:19:23PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: > Viktor and I spoke in more detail. The use-case he brings up makes > more sense to me now. The key observation is that this is not about a I also spoke to Viktor, and he explained the motivation in detail. He really should have done so on the list, but it is this: TL;DR: Postfix multi-process ticket cache DB thrashing pain. - Postfix (which he co-maintains) is a multi-process service (with client and server functionality -- it's an MTA, after all) - Postfix needs a multi-process ticket cache w/ concurrency - OpenSSL provices no such thing, only a single process in-memory cache, and also callbacks the app can use to implement its own cache, which then Postfix uses to implement a multi-process ticket cache - So, getting unnecessary tickets thrashes Postfix's shared cache, which costs a fair bit due to synchronization There are two ways to make this tolerable for Postfix: - either the TLS server says "here's a ticket and you MUST or MAY replace the one you already had" or - the TLS client gets to ask for no unnecessary new tickets Now the first alternative would be infeasible to adopt because it would require new OpenSSL callback APIs, and anyways would be a more invasive change to TLS than the ticketrequest extension makes. That's why Viktor would prefer the other way: let the client ask for no unnecessary new tickets. This has the benefit of saving some bandwidth and server cycles. Now, as to the privacy issue. The server can simply always issue a new ticket, even if the client didn't want it -- presumably MTAs wouldn't, but HTTP servers would. And there is no way for -say- a great firewall to force you to not get new tickets as the server can still always hand the client one, and anyways, this extension can be (should be!) encrypted, so the firewall can't know anyways. All a great firewall gets to see is that your connections can or can't be linked. Especially given Viktor's use case, we can assume (and require, evven) that only SMTP MTAs might request no new unnecessary tickets, so that great firewalls really can make no assumptions about this in HTTP use cases, say. > "client" in the conventional (or browser) sense, but rather more like > a peer-to-peer kind of thing, where the client is just the one who > initiates a connection and might be multiple processes running on > multiple instances sharing an identity. > > I'm in favor of his suggestion. Me too. It's really very simple. There is no legitimate "unnecessarily complex" argument; such arguments come across as unnecessarily dismissive. There is a privacy non-issue, addressed as above, though it's fair to demand that it be addressed. Regarding the "define your own extension" responses... That's fine, I suppose, but why ever bother with WGLCs for these if changes that benefit others will generally be rejected out of hand? Why require TLS WG review of extensions? Why not just make an Expert Review registry? I think the answer to the last question is that we're not ready for that -- we want some WG review, and, presumably, we want some commonality. So, unless we're going to go with Expert Review only, then please do not make this "define your own" argument -- it's at the very least impolite. Nico PS: Viktor tells me that hey, I've advised him to keep posts pithy, thus he elided all the above explanation, but really, IMO, he should have explained in detail.
- [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Jeremy Harris
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests David Schinazi
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Christopher Wood
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests David Schinazi
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests David Schinazi
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Tommy Pauly
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Ben Schwartz
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Ben Schwartz
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Jeremy Harris
- Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Viktor Dukhovni