[TLS] Re: PKI dynamics and trust anchor negotiation

"Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com> Thu, 06 February 2025 21:40 UTC

Return-Path: <rsalz@akamai.com>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57BBC14F747 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:40:56 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.251
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.148, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4s8lATsBmzh for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:40:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8549DC110D3B for <tls@ietf.org>; Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:40:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0122330.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 516LUKhs028534; Thu, 6 Feb 2025 21:40:21 GMT
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h= content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to; s=jan2016.eng; bh=ULMF9eEDNE/3YjNxw4NVfX QHaiYSWsJ8bTkjZxPI8BM=; b=RleXXqvsg2g+IzjTuz1iHrW0nm26GE9+WuCHlF uOdJuhodPVEi7mtkHbigFBAaITEOO0U/lEpCwSGQBKGUISqGCCsNwnw59nWmCXin 8Lp8PisEjWxV44sNe03WFDjXML9+fSRws7VOWgdXvRkuYeKnyVOXU0jTclwjsf0O oqfJBKXrxoIJdJAHLEh8BAU7E2ZsdLYZqwY5nsYH8hYRogU+KKwoI01y6QYZ9fFQ b53nu3LJnHf0bgFXxLHeDRR2RlyB1l6a+hdy5SQNalhhbnxN2OPyrmGZ/jl1ZqYX l+F7EzXK++0tVpAT388OgNrNOvgbS+06YFNVHZAbYjhmpTSA==
Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 44mj7r8kyv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 06 Feb 2025 21:40:20 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 516I0PeF001214; Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:40:18 -0800
Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.50.207]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 44hjfdu8m6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 06 Feb 2025 13:40:17 -0800
Received: from ustx2ex-dag4mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.50.203) by ustx2ex-dag4mb8.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.50.207) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1544.14; Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:40:16 -0800
Received: from ustx2ex-dag4mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.50.203]) by ustx2ex-dag4mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.50.203]) with mapi id 15.02.1544.014; Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:40:16 -0800
From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>, "<tls@ietf.org>" <tls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] PKI dynamics and trust anchor negotiation
Thread-Index: AQHbeNht7ILjh0h33kSIdMNcO3JfIbM7AAUA
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2025 21:40:16 +0000
Message-ID: <11C994AA-D3B4-435E-8385-829AE615D992@akamai.com>
References: <CAF8qwaANSCodvYKAxSJf1EFnJaXmFAfD+USCg+kRVY9eRa1zow@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAF8qwaANSCodvYKAxSJf1EFnJaXmFAfD+USCg+kRVY9eRa1zow@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.93.25012611
x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43]
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_11C994AAD3B4435E8385829AE615D992akamaicom_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2025-02-06_06,2025-02-05_03,2024-11-22_01
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=783 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2501170000 definitions=main-2502060169
X-Proofpoint-GUID: 9DiOScozbxFm5nT_D-LdtuirdCjbRYHp
X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=Basi0qt2 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=67a52c45 cx=c_pps a=NpDlK6FjLPvvy7XAFEyJFw==:117 a=NpDlK6FjLPvvy7XAFEyJFw==:17 a=tuSJzH7BKwkA:10 a=T2h4t0Lz3GQA:10 a=ANEudJI_6uoZYhfHFs8A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ZXulRonScM0A:10 a=zZCYzV9kfG8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=nR1TmwNN2qmDWLMwIfYA:9 a=HUq-XkzdZ34jNpEI:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 9DiOScozbxFm5nT_D-LdtuirdCjbRYHp
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2025-02-06_06,2025-02-05_03,2024-11-22_01
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=615 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam authscore=0 authtc=n/a authcc= route=outbound adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2501170000 definitions=main-2502060170
Message-ID-Hash: MCSYM2PRELUYLTSZA7JT7ULEK7WA6ZOO
X-Message-ID-Hash: MCSYM2PRELUYLTSZA7JT7ULEK7WA6ZOO
X-MailFrom: rsalz@akamai.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS] Re: PKI dynamics and trust anchor negotiation
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/Cu253xSfLPMy22NbbrWToPwldt8>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>


First, to correct a misrepresentation: this draft is not a veiled attempt to completely diverge from the Web PKI and fragment the ecosystem.



I never said that the draft is such a veiled attempt, and I don’t recall any other postings saying that.  I am concerned that the fragmentation is a highly likely outcome.