Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be removed
Tony Arcieri <bascule@gmail.com> Sun, 04 October 2015 20:16 UTC
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From: Tony Arcieri <bascule@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 13:16:08 -0700
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To: Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be removed
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On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Typically compression is used to lower the overall size of data, > working on > >> a wide class of inputs. In the perceptual coding case the class of > inputs > >> is constrained, and the goal is to keep the data rate constant, not > >> optimally small. > > > > Yep. You could do this in bursts with different caps each time to get it > to work with bursty things like HTTP & other general data transfer > protocols. Without a really good modern compression algorithm, though, it > isn't that appealing. Once these caveats and tweaks start getting added to > the simple concept, it starts treading into the territory that is better > handled by the application protocol that actually *knows what it's > sending*. This seems to be the logical wall we keep hitting, which is why > TLS doesn't seem like the place to do this. > > > I think two concepts are blending into one.... You appear to be > arguing for efficiency, and I'm more concerned with safely/securely. > No, you're just not following the conversation or understanding the concepts. > I'm fairly certain the internet community at large would benefit from > "compression done safely/securely", even if its not the most > efficient. If the application layer wants to provide a more efficient > implementations, then that's fine too. Doing compression safely/securely is an application-specific problem. Using constant bitrate perceptual coding allows us to compress audio/video streams in such a way that there is no compression side-channel, because the data rate is kept constant per unit time. If we were to try to use TLS compression instead, not only would it fail to compress as well, but it would have a compression side-channel an attacker could use to potentially recover a transcript of an encrypted conversation (such attacks against against VBR audio compression). TLS is the wrong layer at which to solve the problem of compression. -- Tony Arcieri
- [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be rem… Alewa, Christos
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Loganaden Velvindron
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Karthikeyan Bhargavan
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Thijs van Dijk
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Björn Tackmann
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeremy Harris
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… takamichi saito
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… takamichi saito
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… takamichi saito
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Douglas Stebila
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Short, Todd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Short, Todd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Joseph Salowey
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… takamichi saito
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… takamichi saito
- Re: [TLS] TLS 1.3 - Support for compression to be… Julien ÉLIE