[TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Key Agreement for TLS 1.3

"Bellebaum, Thomas" <thomas.bellebaum@aisec.fraunhofer.de> Wed, 16 April 2025 08:12 UTC

Return-Path: <thomas.bellebaum@aisec.fraunhofer.de>
X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675121CD71E8 for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2025 01:12:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.299
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aisec.fraunhofer.de header.b="hgE/e9jQ"; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com header.b="cM6BRCbl"
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id auSRD2bfYszC for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2025 01:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-edgeBI124.fraunhofer.de (mail-edgebi124.fraunhofer.de [192.102.163.124]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBC1A1CD71C0 for <tls@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2025 01:12:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=aisec.fraunhofer.de; i=@aisec.fraunhofer.de; q=dns/txt; s=emailbd1; t=1744791162; x=1776327162; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=Ipox14ZOH6vxvxjT5GpnlrDWtH41dy67cboKBzqhCPE=; b=hgE/e9jQnhDgNt5ncYDdL6pNumnQzfKxZ2paItlf3QzOxCIdt4LMO0Sy LpzX1yLU+RPgrUq15CYTaTR/+kISynDQt/3cG9V7NsGrpn4g+QVtu2mPU +5COvgzRv/bwg2sbOJxx0sGzk6AGR08jGE7TSdM6dWg9IgwYNcjzPxG1A KkwguTEl2D3KL/1nRyHjrl83Z5XqIEYIOaJ5JOT4+bo0uDF9ZREcL46Em Rq3n8uXmFnxx/kJVRY6aIsGAaeJ1R9VuZe7j8VXZo134ydUVoRs1+MJFr 5Aympx1imolMM7hjxQaFlCfMQbhY5S+2XzRuvUzvsI/PbqDDDzoCe5g5N Q==;
X-CSE-ConnectionGUID: 0jESuRvHSwq98SyDiAb8+Q==
X-CSE-MsgGUID: XuLohjXkQ+uYv5fM65GVwQ==
Authentication-Results: mail-edgeBI124.fraunhofer.de; dkim=pass (signature verified) header.i=@fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com
X-IPAS-Result: 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
IronPort-PHdr: A9a23:8z/CtxLXQBAUzy+tjNmcuDZnWUAX0o4cQyYLv8N0w7sbaL+quo/iN RaCu6YlhwrTUIHS+/9IzPDbt6nwVGBThPTJvCUMapVRUR8Ch8gM2QsmBc+OE0rgK/D2KSc9G ZcKTwp+8nW2OlRSApy7aUfbv3uy6jAfAFD4Mw90Lf7yAYnck4G80OXhnv+bY1Bmnj24M597M BjklhjbtMQdndlHJ70qwxTE51pkKc9Rw39lI07Wowfk65WV3btOthpdoekg8MgSYeDfROEVX bdYBTIpPiUO6cvnuAPqYSCP63AfAQB02hBIVgfctBGgepzg4yeip/NjwBiTB/yrR+g4BCmEy YhaDzO2kCs4dD0f1mPGg9Ml38c56Bj0rDkh6bT/aoWPKcN8XqztdtVBfURNT/9bXg98HLyfd 6QBFslbD99a8tfcq1URpEOwIAiKDfP/xC1mlHvQz4Qg9L0CHlDa/goMJZEHtWXW/czWKaY9D /y5l7Tq3WyaULRvgxGl+avLdwI9nc2UU7ZoTfbjxFsCKgnPtGe2hoL+L2/K8NQikEm8v8twS sGd2kF9oiBygD2U+eF31tGKwd0Y6n7q7BlDxtonf42ZHR0zcZulCpxWryaAK85sT9g/R309o C8h0e5uUf+TeSELzNEqyxHSQd3eKdTO7AjqSeCRJjl1njRpdeH3ixWz9B24w/bnHomv0VlMp zZYiNSEqH0X1hLS58TGAvtw90usw3COgijd8OhZJ0Azm6fBbZknx787jJ0ItkrfWCTxnS3L
X-Talos-CUID: 9a23:31gReG1UcDVK39E6e5fShbxfQsIISWDn0lfrPFbpWV14ZLy8Qw/TwfYx
X-Talos-MUID: 9a23:SI1CwQppUqh1B2RtRL0ezwF/EMBo4ZStMQMQoItbtezaaANOJA7I2Q==
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.15,215,1739833200"; d="p7s'346?scan'346,208,346";a="9087810"
Received: from mail-mtabi109-intra.mx.fraunhofer.de (HELO mail-mtaBI109.fraunhofer.de) ([10.226.4.37]) by mail-edgeBI124.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384; 16 Apr 2025 10:12:40 +0200
X-CSE-ConnectionGUID: ljlUx9RcR+uFLVVwLafbCw==
X-CSE-MsgGUID: RIUmR29XTFulI10rHiAodA==
IronPort-SDR: 67ff6678_Tf8tjG5M+FisMS/GpgVNs6OEWQbFXNxKBh1iYlb1qi7b2ur CKfQtx48ShrHLSZbwmjBeUoMz3/lcftB3+OqaOw==
X-IPAS-Result: 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
IronPort-PHdr: A9a23:RSeqQBdY9XLSiqo4ilyLq7frlGM+49/LVj580XJao6wbK/fr9sH4J 0Wa/vVk1gKXDs3QvuhJj+PGvqynQ2EE6IaMvCNnEtRAAhEfgNgQnwsuDdTDDkv+LfXwaDc9E tgEX1hgrDmgZFNYHMv1e1rI+Di89zcPHBX4OwdvY+PzH4/ZlcOs0O6uvpbUZlYt5nK9NJ1oK xDkgQzNu5stnIFgJ60tmD7EuWBBdOkT5E86DlWVgxv6+oKM7YZuoQFxnt9kycNaSqT9efYIC JljSRk2OGA84sLm8CLOSweC/FIweWUbmRkbZmqN5hGvUY6psnHevfss1HGLJNPufLkOaGmot 6s2VTnOpxZAG2Ah/F6UiepWjrNSv0fywn43ydvfRd+/DtF0ernARNE6SlpKWJ1peSBQO4m1T LYRMMkZEuhBjNPPnllT8zqyCxalXO3KyxlBlm/4z4Mo18IzOBvhhS8vTs4stlju79zwJaVDS MOozYaW0TmYctFGgG7Cr7GSVEgwgvKJT65MTdLfzVETKzHInHito4bfDRW62P8d7ze938VDd MX/qn44iDMgjWKm58QOj7L2oNlJkhODqihZ7qgsGee+FFwhMf/xQ9NA8iCAMI1uRdk+Bntlo zs+1ugesIWgL0Diqbwizh/bLvmbeqKpu0qyEuiLKCp+hHVrdaj5ixvhuUSjy+ipTsCvyx4Kt StKlNDQq2oAnwLe8MmJS/Zxvw+h1D+D2hqV67RsL1o9iKzbLJAs2Pg3kJ8Sul7EBSj4hAP9i 6r+Sw==
IronPort-Data: A9a23:XneD66+Y1jv+E2F7lE+4DrUDanuTJUtcMsCJ2f8bNWPcYEJGY0x3y GEcC2+PMquPZDH8f41/Po/j8EoP78DdmNFmGQM9+ShEQiMRo6IpJzg2wmQcn8+2BpeeJK6yx 5xGMrEsFOhtEDmE4E7rauGwxZVF/fngbqLmD+LZMTxGSwZhSSMw4TpugOdRbrRA2LBVOCvT/ 4qvyyHjEAX9gWMsbjtKs/vrRC5H5ZwehhtI5jTSWtgW5Dcyp1FNZLoDKKe4KWfPQ4U8NoaSW +bZwbilyXjS9hErB8nNuu6TnpoiG+O60aCm0xK6aoD66vRwjnVaPpUTaJLwXXxqZwChxLid/ jnvWauYEm/FNoWU8AgUvoIx/ytWZcWq85efSZSzXFD6I0DuKxPRL/tS4E4eOY8cx/YmO2p0t uE2DA4zcTSKieid3+fuIgVsrpxLwMjDJ4YDojdt3TrZS/g8SI3FQ6LE6MUe0DpYasJmRKuFI ZtGL2MwPVKZOUIn1lQ/UPrSmM+0hn76eiYeol+Roac96nXW5AVwy7XmdtTPc8GMRcJbk1zeq m+uE2HRWE9HaYfPkmvtHnSEvM7ymBmhCbIuOqC816cymn2S72sfIUhDPbe8ibzj4qKkYPpEN 0EM+ico66Y77lamSt3VVAb+vHWI+B8RM/JKCOQ++lTRkqPX6gOQBy4PSTtpZNkvrsRwRDE22 BmOhdyBLSBrq5WURG6TsLCOoluP1TM9dDJZIH5bCFJaspy6+t51kBeJRZBtCqeoiN3yFzzqh TyHxMQju4guYQcw//zT1XjJmTuxoJjOQAMvoALRW2Ou9ARiY4C5IYev7DDmATxode51l3HY5 CdUyfuNpvsDF4+MnyGrSeAAVuPhrfWcPTGWxRYlE5A9/n7/szSubKJB0gFYfU1JC8cjfSO2Q UnxvQgK2oRfEkH3ZoBKYqWwKf8Q847eKfrfWMrpM+V+OqpKSFff/QVFR1Kh4GT2oU19zYA9I ci6dOivP1Y7CINm7mK/aLYB4I8O2xE7+3jZaq76/iSZzYOxSmaeE4kHFF68f9EJ0r6Nj1TQw eZ+Kvml9hR7e8/9axnx7oQ8Aw0rL386JJausO1RVLeJDTRHEVEbKc364O0eab0+up9Kh8H0/ n2ZcW1J+mrV3HHoB12DVSF+VenJQ516k0MeAQUtGlSZg14Yfoel6fYkRasdJLUI2rRq8q9pc qMjZc6FP/VoTwbH8RQ7ab3WjtRrVDavtDK0ExuVWhoNVL8+eFWR4f7hRBXlywcWBCnutccen ayp5jmGfbU9HTZdHOTkQ9Px6WiuvEotuvN4BGrJBdhxRH/C0qZXLw7Js/tmBP1UdDviwGOB2 he0ECUog7DHg7UI/enjgYGGqIaUENVCIHdKIlmD7ZuLMXj1w2ny565BT+eCQh7FXkzW5qiJR LtY3tP8AtI9jXdItItwPLZ1x50Q9f/qhbtQ4RRgLXDlNl6WILNpEl+C7NgSs6ZI6OZTvAuoa Eex6/1fA7GoOdzkInEVNgEKfuSO7tBKuzrw6f4aMEHL4QEu9oGYXnt9PweGtwJPDb0tK6Ij4 74rl/A34jyFqCgBE4i5nBEP0l+TP1o8U6kDnbMLMr/B0wYE5AlLXs3BN3XQ/pqKVeRpDmArB T2l3Iz5mLVWwxv5QUoZTHTi87JUusUThUps0lQHGlWun+jFjN8R2Dl602w+biZR/yV9/9NDA EpZHGwrGvzW5BZtvtZJYE60EQIYBBG5xF34+2FUqELnFXuXRk7/B0xjH92S/XIp0XNWJRla2 7C69FzLcxjXeOPJ4y9jfnI99tLCS4Rq+xzgifKXOZ2PP6MHbArPho6sYms1qCXbP/4huX2fp cdW0bZxTYbZKR8vp7YKDtjG9LYIFzGBCm9wYdBg26IrD2vsQi6W3AbSGhq+Z/FLBfzGzhK/A ZZcIslOCheM7weVjzUhHaVXCaRFrP0ow9sje73QOm8NtYWEnAdpqJ798ivfhnchZddlgeIRC 9r2WWqZM2qygXB0pTf8nPNcMDDlXeheNRzO4u+l1c4oSbQBibhIWmMv2OKWu361DlNWzyiMt lmeW56Mnv1Q8qUyrY7CCa4ZOh6VL+n0X+G28AyeldRCQNfMEMXWvTMutVjVEFVKDIQVRuhIu +yBgPzv0GPBmYQGYWTTtp2CNqtOvOGZfu5cNODpJ3h7wwqGfuLR4CU4xmPpEqwRzeth5fSmS TXhOYH0PZQQVsxGzXJYVzlGHlxPQ+7rZ6PnvmWmo+7KFhEZ1hfdIci68WPyK1tWbTIMJ4a0H zqcVyxCPTyEhN8k6Mc4Osxb
IronPort-HdrOrdr: A9a23:W3S63qqCLCDIwaJqZjgHGT8aV5oBeYIsimQD101hICG8cqSj5q KTdZMgpHjJYVcqKRUdcL+7VpVoLUm8yXcX2/h1AV7BZmbbUQKTRekIh+aP/9SJIVyZygc379 YCT0ERMr3NJGk/ocH2+Q+5FMsbzNOa66C0laOG3npgHFkvR54I1XYBNjqm
X-Talos-CUID: 9a23:qDvydWxGs9K7iLx9mAiFBgUQGMQYYiznx02TPmGcN1h2bLSbQ3SPrfY=
X-Talos-MUID: 9a23:cCJn0Q5PK7V9Qd8nNHQZBexUxoxSwpmrMhpcoakops2lbHRqGza0izieF9o=
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.15,215,1739833200"; d="p7s'346?scan'346,208,346";a="26553839"
Received: from 153-97-179-127.vm.c.fraunhofer.de (HELO smtp.exch.fraunhofer.de) ([153.97.179.127]) by mail-mtaBI109.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Apr 2025 10:12:40 +0200
Received: from XCH-HYBRID-04.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.9.46) by XCH-HYBRID-04.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.9.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1544.11; Wed, 16 Apr 2025 10:12:40 +0200
Received: from FR4P281CU032.outbound.protection.outlook.com (40.93.78.49) by XCH-HYBRID-04.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.9.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1544.11 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 16 Apr 2025 10:12:40 +0200
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector10001; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=hJQCVcwJOz5ALE48F12C568nAyBVmu39PxMczSHDGr8qCiIzFFIE/U8kwravb1BoDRMXonnv943YXQfYFmUNX4vQDUU9jUZCf1MYM2++3SODrR0PvDPwdHsoE4sldGo8xwVOH4l5xOcOM1C+sFUyZJzuVVv9/haA0dnnisl8wg1/eIGNKCxVGNLNWPd1jbPjdViQIqQDL5JQTmC+7iQ7umyOzOgM3oF/g6JDb4ejLPWmaAa7CUWa0wznqapxR+7AZBK+YsQoLR79FPEM+VZ2LWuitf6cfa+odfes6I/SZDlO6CE4+Y1K0dKS5+TEy3HoTwyX935Zti96AmcSZDNCSA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector10001; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=gq0h2Lcy9d0yqvpYaRY5b0d5uNNGY/D6pdW+kNNjyaw=; b=zR8YJtcPvTcDbZx7E2ZQALhXPSW4B8yUU4/dzKE/bDrAdOiEv8McBFPzefJxF3IBYgZ8iyu8Ui5HNO1AlThQsuQ2jiWEEc5D7Bl9WBWb+QPPxg1BfBtF2b0AYk78UAVzHAgHpiU7Ofl8EI623IffWJ46URghX6RmYt7L5n/PpDzGJr5hR8wR2fUHmI5+7hIA1yeCQlBQUnIFUz04vOEu7kBd4UH4FqxGG2JEDZSgLwrv2ffLWIlGBl0cKQiUi3BVJA0IBzjxXOCdNq2TgiHGtX7rrqGvBzgpKNGDRJWtbEmhtHnXYA8ygoBRpC93GXOtO4qAdi0VwTFMmVgMBdB6dQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=aisec.fraunhofer.de; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=aisec.fraunhofer.de; dkim=pass header.d=aisec.fraunhofer.de; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-fraunhofer-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=gq0h2Lcy9d0yqvpYaRY5b0d5uNNGY/D6pdW+kNNjyaw=; b=cM6BRCblruQjHgXcn3PFdyQbaKUvWKpGfqK2ZQj56Idfwa0fMiNaxxfzFzlNzArO1Kg9tJnDR+amyj9qKuiG6td3uJx11W/Q2N0yKkmztTTpflpTTZezEUbbRZNGfsx47NXGKIO8IxwKZ9G2aIkJmSWN340+/7eHFFqTRn4z28I=
Received: from FR2PPF505246CBE.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d18:2::33) by FR0P281MB2892.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:4d::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.8632.36; Wed, 16 Apr 2025 08:12:39 +0000
Received: from FR2PPF505246CBE.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::fd57:1fc0:bd10:c142]) by FR2PPF505246CBE.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::fd57:1fc0:bd10:c142%3]) with mapi id 15.20.8655.022; Wed, 16 Apr 2025 08:12:39 +0000
From: "Bellebaum, Thomas" <thomas.bellebaum@aisec.fraunhofer.de>
To: "stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Key Agreement for TLS 1.3
Thread-Index: AQHbrPJBV3/74HL8TkOCNQdviQ3EgLOlWuuAgAAIB4CAACfpAIAAA5sAgAACX4CAAGPngA==
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2025 08:12:38 +0000
Message-ID: <c19d4aab928747fc3e702bdad7bf22ddf120ff9f.camel@aisec.fraunhofer.de>
References: <582917A1-F936-4A15-AE9D-342076605BE7@sn3rd.com> <F347DA21-EB06-4FBF-B357-871A0FFA8DB1@sn3rd.com> <Z/7lbXqb8QHruMS2@akamai.com> <05bd6aa6-4b41-4bdc-8875-d380924031cf@cs.tcd.ie> <IA1PR17MB6421EBF2FDA5B4395C92D6D3CDBD2@IA1PR17MB6421.namprd17.prod.outlook.com> <73c3de1d-a9ee-43ee-8a71-ac1fe28ca467@cs.tcd.ie> <IA1PR17MB6421FCBACFA92AF01342D2FDCDBD2@IA1PR17MB6421.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <IA1PR17MB6421FCBACFA92AF01342D2FDCDBD2@IA1PR17MB6421.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: FR2PPF505246CBE:EE_|FR0P281MB2892:EE_
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1094792b-9e2e-4116-c520-08dd7cbe7432
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|1800799024|366016|376014|38070700018|4053099003;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:FR2PPF505246CBE.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(1800799024)(366016)(376014)(38070700018)(4053099003);DIR:OUT;SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: WEOqLSrK20zsCMHhwREaqxuG1EiqchwsOk1BlLdG3qzS7djokH+AE7uFYjwXBJy6TwUviISAuwZWspZ9tTbpqI5OsACUDrBhr1m5ywW7c8BIDoFwYGQi/aGMwFA9ZmElb/0izYCkp357kytkcx2WF2tTGszfcfypU99OstX/6n6vXV8xAjy+dpAoYffgsrG22aV9jeGKS3aXmC/jccO0DXDFemO2kv0q56qU61y4hqBGhs0cIoAGMj3pCDKN213yum7sMh+9b4p2OgamOUi7C56oQhb55XZRvNzDEWX7ss78zP73jV9ke6g/NjcK3NnRNr/YWwdCsQjLB4noTsuDCRi33FhEiVgX+Ry254zhUui59GGymHsKjH81wZTC3nzL2pDISmeSIbiv9xjOEMwwz3DDJMu87JzN2tcuKnLdy7akmeIMZeuyKWViy23kw61RgWqDTcEwzcuhNDCL4ickZBuSTBtdWPHd0Sq1zvm3Cx4+X13sJxZ8GrFVjVamsMdsIgSoEacbeBRrmd/I7VYViXCsqkCOjueJVOqUW2uoN2R/LNZqKWSasoS3Kma++PsqI7k/Fj5l8hU+mZSqOb8wEtbjnuQIHhsQwDNcRiHRkWOkzspnV68/Gwx7T6wFIuo90R0fDI6m6ByTBPrSMiHhpr3MJ8dZPtgwLml9Qyvj8mFVav2hCUR3+WtNgSNj6Wr4WLOYVmTn0ujufnHFhHMkP8SIfo+rSB8VH5bTDTB8z01z/fv4j146XPmokn8vLHfbBaK1Emed9Dta0bEjf/OjdgdlrfJAJO3nO7tS3FM0Yh4ZKVapdZcyPhgOu0CD2PtpLF+3+xyQOurI1rvg1up20+gTQcc9EHuIhm5Np24GHHVwIj/4EgEDox+01+Da7mPMmZ40qxXfwIrL0lHiZn11mLU86Yh3NLHUT7ItdUskVnIuWCNt1KOl7YhWjycRevlRSjKyJmK2xfeyTozIGCIQ+V8m/83Da1zRIc58ZowsFOPmm4QQMEdCPShkU7WFPQkG6ASf5lldi2lYSyXZYNxDf5rr9ygxbp7F0zqnAecxqhck2INnlkl+vPNn+SOCBg2awrOXw5phrThywZ4P49umrZuILWoU3irIcn+IewudwIcj9t8kVch0cTf8DympqiWkAn2q/naYOiRqm4f8hBa3X2PVFG0BdxFoP6Wigb2EKb7pD2ZgJy5q2r+qpzSgJ13jUISJRTSIXgPszWbVDHMttxFuJxX8lfl3a4bA7jZyWhc2eFmyhYq5g/wlYQH+chxErg+L3PofZ9z5AGoDg40AJ0AGONG5RzO1qR/JV1bC9sxYeYu4tjNABO8hHY5X0+dcmugKFgwJeFdwhf/uvKM6it7SusGp8R8xBo/fS/2XgYc08pmlJ+2Jj7nFARRVljSN+GjwFKWR50b+0dHmoqkHkZHmG493a5GIbK/bUHIuE4n7+frmDkG0ZzkK4GiJDuRxmej5dbA2pnoVkX2BLuiaIq7yWvx55CNUQ2+1v6TieMDqhMxlN1aQqULBFZ845BZPfGnIa476BK0pEVcmWs0i4g7iRmN2Ro+f6g47fcfAg8xZY9hDg0xx29do04Jql2cZ2iHIyMh77UEYHW3ciWlHgeaBO2gMDVnT8ghdpgpHDgQ=
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-PebU792eQSAg78KB9a9g"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: FR2PPF505246CBE.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1094792b-9e2e-4116-c520-08dd7cbe7432
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Apr 2025 08:12:39.1310 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f930300c-c97d-4019-be03-add650a171c4
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vkuJvzS8+sBnerXHqr+9JY4DT/LdDoUEAjm3wApL0lOOAGw/anTveA43XMZEPU/V2BBLl/3E/r9AzlZ0BMjEFdNMz4GFMEdPkIZj0YralA64oiXYAERA3QO56t46ITqS
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: FR0P281MB2892
X-OriginatorOrg: aisec.fraunhofer.de
Message-ID-Hash: WAW7AKPB3H3DQZFWCBQLTUUQTAKQKGZV
X-Message-ID-Hash: WAW7AKPB3H3DQZFWCBQLTUUQTAKQKGZV
X-MailFrom: thomas.bellebaum@aisec.fraunhofer.de
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Key Agreement for TLS 1.3
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/Ev2S46V-vlZxnVj-i_KnuJQNEQ0>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>

> That’s easy to answer: “many of our members have very hardware-constrained PoS devices.” Is that okay?

Some context:

Kyber requires several KB of RAM space according to [1], figure 1:

KG = KeyGen, E=Encaps, D=Decaps, H=Heap, S=Stack

Alg       | KG(H) | KG(S) | E(H)  | E(S)  | D(H)  | D(S)
----------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+------
Kyber1024 |13,480 |16,488 |10,736 |19,024 |10,768 |20,304
Kyber512  |11,176 | 7,208 | 7,632 | 9,072 | 7,664 | 9,856
Kyber768  |12,328 |11,304 | 9,104 |13,680 | 9,136 |14,784

For comparison, [2] is an implementation of Curve25519 using no heap space.
On an ATmega128, it uses 462 bytes of stack space for a curve multiplication.

While these numbers are not comparable as is (C25519 does not include the KEM-Hash, Architectures are different, I am unconvinced that Kyber was fully optimized for this in [1]), the difference is striking enough to ask a follow up:

Are there concrete devices/scenarios supporting ML-KEM + an application, but not ML-KEM + X25519 + an application, especially since the memory necessary to store two X25519 keys and a DH-KEM session key during the ML-KEM computations is 3*32 bytes?

-- TBB

[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s43926-024-00069-2
[2] https://www.dlbeer.co.nz/oss/c25519.html