Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3
Ralph Holz <ralph.ietf@gmail.com> Sun, 23 November 2014 13:27 UTC
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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 14:27:25 +0100
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From: Ralph Holz <ralph.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3
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I'd disagree with the notion of "it is clear what TLS supports" - there is no threat model describing the strength of an attacker (and there never has been). It's not even clear what TLS means by "authentication". As a possible step forward, we could say TLS supports authentication as Lowe's injective agreement - a fairly strong definition yet one matching intuitive expectation. On 22 November 2014 at 23:15, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Henrick Hellström <henrick@streamsec.se> > wrote: > > On 2014-11-22 01:57, Watson Ladd wrote: > >> > >> Was the TLS 1.3 draft written by a cryptographer? No. > >> Has it been reviewed by cryptographers? Unclear. > >> Are the mechanisms secure? Unknown. > >> Is it easy to analyze TLS 1.2? No. > >> Was TLS 1.2 secure? No. > >> Has TLS 1.3 fixed flaws in TLS 1.2? Some: session_hash remains > >> unincluded, but the record layer is finally fixed. > > > > > > I think such discussions would benefit from the basic premise that > "secure" > > is a relative notion. It is completely pointless to ask if a protocol is > > secure or not secure, unless you first present an exhaustive list of > > security claims. That is, you can't ask if TLS 1.3 is secure or not, > without > > first describing what security is to be expected from different > scenarios. > > It's clear what the security claims of TLS are be: a TLS connection > between two parties ensures that data sent between them isn't > intercepted or manipulated, and that they are who they claim to be. > This is a fairly standard notion, clearly present in research by the > late 80's, and intuitively sensible. > > Of course, past versions of TLS haven't provided it. > > > > > In a sense, *every* protocol has the potential of becoming broken, > unless it > > is unambiguously defined what is proper and improper usage of the > protocol. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TLS mailing list > > TLS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > > > -- > "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little > Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." > -- Benjamin Franklin > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >
- [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Henrick Hellström
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Henrick Hellström
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Henrick Hellström
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Henrick Hellström
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Henrick Hellström
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Joseph Salowey
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Ryan Sleevi
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] Rethink TLS 1.3 Peter Gutmann