Re: [TLS] Consensus call for keys used in handshake and data messages

Felix Günther <guenther@cs.tu-darmstadt.de> Tue, 14 June 2016 18:56 UTC

Return-Path: <guenther@cs.tu-darmstadt.de>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEFE12D8E4 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:56:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.626
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1HC6WwLdq2HF for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:56:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de (lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de [130.83.156.232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1165512D8E7 for <tls@ietf.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:56:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp.tu-darmstadt.de (lnx505.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de [130.83.156.234]) by lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/HRZ/PMX) with ESMTP id u5EIuqBE022386 for <tls@ietf.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:56:52 +0200 (envelope-from guenther@cs.tu-darmstadt.de)
Received: from [130.83.73.96] by smtp.tu-darmstadt.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <guenther@cs.tu-darmstadt.de>) id 1bCtW7-0005y6-U7 for tls@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:56:52 +0200
To: tls@ietf.org
References: <CAOgPGoDRZdJN7DY10tDoEEidVkxeKabCcW_U3vQqaaH6x162gw@mail.gmail.com> <8760tc3kd0.fsf@alice.fifthhorseman.net> <764f87ac-92ee-c410-35ac-d4a2cf0e51ad@mehnert.org> <CABdrxL4BPAG_Obm=_FJBxFMawVKYpfV97-zsHFerqh1tzpVZrQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Felix Günther <guenther@cs.tu-darmstadt.de>
Openpgp: id=2BAE4A6F7946461B700161B352AF0200D3F1700E; url=http://www.felixguenther.info/publickey.asc
Message-ID: <5760536F.5040801@cs.tu-darmstadt.de>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:56:47 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CABdrxL4BPAG_Obm=_FJBxFMawVKYpfV97-zsHFerqh1tzpVZrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8AhED2Sb9H0TGD3I1Rc2glRR3QukjNCs1"
X-PMX-TU: seen v1.2 by 5.6.1.2065439, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2016.6.14.184516
X-PMX-RELAY: outgoing
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/IWNrRxShFhtmROHDXog6YrEDi40>
Subject: Re: [TLS] Consensus call for keys used in handshake and data messages
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls/>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 18:56:58 -0000

I also prefer (2).

Cheers,
Felix

On 14/06/2016 14:45 +0200, Cas Cremers wrote:
> It is not quite as simple as saying "(1) makes proofs more complicated"
> since it depends on what you are trying to prove.
> 
> (1) makes some styles of standard AKE property proofs (key secrecy,
> authentication) harder
> (2) might make some privacy proofs harder
> 
> Given that the proof-effort has mostly focused on secrecy and
> authentication properties, one can argue for (2).
> However, some proof styles can still work out in (1), so it is not such
> a clear choice.
> 
> Over time, I've changed my mind, and I now prefer (2) (since we don't
> have full detail on any privacy proofs) as long as the content-type
> essentially boils down to a single bit of information (which key we are
> using) and nothing else.
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Cas
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Hannes Mehnert <hannes@mehnert.org
> <mailto:hannes@mehnert.org>> wrote:
> 
>     On 13/06/2016 21:27, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
>     > On Mon 2016-06-13 15:00:03 -0400, Joseph Salowey wrote:
>     >> 1. Use the same key for handshake and application traffic (as in the
>     >> current draft-13)
>     >>
>     >  > or
>     >>
>     >> 2. Restore a public content type and different keys
>     >
>     > Given this choice, i prefer (1).
> 
>     FWIW, I prefer (1) as well
> 
> 
>     hannes
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     TLS mailing list
>     TLS@ietf.org <mailto:TLS@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TLS mailing list
> TLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
>