Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7463A0945 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8HsjVIh_j_5C for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCB4E3A0926 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F0FBE20; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:23:53 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4UYlQlSo12Q; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:23:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26182BDCF; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:23:51 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1584915831; bh=OEvxail3SSmea2pdCdRtN9mbV16PaV7vlJbp2ECI9Jk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=05hy2cWdAlr+D8Br41ECgszgn1HQZl7f8gXvCeyrMER6hao/Nc8kdOPSXUioPfR81 D0EbF2Y+kWnjSQtOEGSWITh97LEg8kFCq1WSUYfBuwALzKkOoTcwxWG/FKniOGVF34 wGo/lGROCdAGBzfkQv1uDCDITfqx21aLoh5cPlA0= To: Eric Rescorla , Christopher Wood Cc: "TLS@ietf.org" References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFJlkCtsAAtUiSsTsMMhjj7A9SXvCUC3K" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Dropping "do not stick out" from ECHO X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:24:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nFJlkCtsAAtUiSsTsMMhjj7A9SXvCUC3K Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qyfsfWzgXOkgVrjXpZTKMiqhLhuJBB1ei"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , Christopher Wood Cc: "TLS@ietf.org" Message-ID: <6b52f482-3a5e-ed0f-232a-68b888d00a2a@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [TLS] Dropping "do not stick out" from ECHO References: In-Reply-To: --qyfsfWzgXOkgVrjXpZTKMiqhLhuJBB1ei Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B87B01EE2F07DF6D9B460538" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B87B01EE2F07DF6D9B460538 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I was wondering what I wanted to say about this, until... On 22/03/2020 22:16, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I think we should relax this requirement. It's turning out to be hard > enough to design ECHO as-is. >=20 > If/when we get ECHO fully designed and widely deployed, we can then try= to > find designs which use the same basic design but are more stealthy. >=20 > Trying to fix everything at once makes the best the enemy of the good. Yeah, that's about right. Well said. I very much like the idea of working on a more-stealthy mode later. I think we might be able to go even further in terms of simplifying ECHO in various ways that can make it easier to implement and deploy now without affecting the security properties/analysis. (I think I've whined about those on the list before but can regurgitate if useful:-) Cheers, S. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 9:54 AM Christopher Wood > wrote: >=20 >> One of the original motivating requirements for ECHO (then ENSI) was "= do >> not stick >> out" [1]. This complicates the current ECHO design, as clients must >> trial decrypt >> the first encrypted handshake message to determine whether a server us= ed >> the inner >> or outer ClientHello for a given connection. It's also trivial to prob= e >> for ECHO >> support, e.g., by sending a bogus ECHO with the same key ID used in a >> target client >> connection and checking what comes back. >> >> I propose we remove this requirement and add an explicit signal in SH >> that says >> whether or not ECHO was negotiated. (This will require us to revisit >> GREASE.) >> >> What do others think? >> >> Thanks, >> Chris (no hat) >> >> [1] >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-09#section-3= =2E4 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >=20 --------------B87B01EE2F07DF6D9B460538 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy 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