Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA BCP
"Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu> Tue, 02 September 2014 23:26 UTC
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From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>
To: "'holz@net.in.tum.de'" <holz@net.in.tum.de>, "'tls@ietf.org'" <tls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA BCP
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Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 23:26:33 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/KNv56l8_H__2H1QNlVjC_j-q5Hw
Subject: Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA BCP
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Yes I really do know such organizations. You can call it "first hand experience". Why not "MiTM" - aka "cracked SSL"? My personal take: I prefer my security guarantees - whatever they are - to be end-to-end. Especially integrity/authenticity. And interrupting the flow at the gateway breaks this. There could be other reasons, which I may not know or think of (not working closely with IT). (Also, I hope you didn't miss the "not allowed" part.) I add that I violently disagree with Paul L., and insist that while NULL ciphers should not be enabled by default - they "must not" be "MUST NOT"-ed. -- Regards, Uri Blumenthal Voice: (781) 981-1638 Cyber Systems and Technology Fax: (781) 981-0186 MIT Lincoln Laboratory Cell: (339) 223-5363 244 Wood Street, Lexington, MA 02420-9185 Web: http://www.ll.mit.edu/CST/ MIT LL Root CA: <https://www.ll.mit.edu/labcertificateauthority.html> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ralph Holz [mailto:holz@net.in.tum.de] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 03:45 PM To: tls@ietf.org <tls@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA BCP Hi, >> What could TLS integrity-only protection buy you in that >> environment? > > Traffic visibility for those who are responsible for monitoring, and > integrity protection who want tamper detection but don't require (or > aren't allowed to have) confidentiality. Is this a real use case? I.e., do you really know companies/organisations that do this? > My personal opinion is that VPN should be built upon IPsec, not TLS. > Unfortunately, the market does not seem to agree. I see (in my > environment) the need to (sometimes) run a VPN across the corporate > boundary. One implication is - IT on both sides want to examine the > traffic, at the same time ensuring nothing is injected into the > stream. Why can't they simply monitor on the two gateways? Or are you suggesting a setup where an organisation fowards internal traffic via a tunnel, only integrity-protected? Why that? > I am all for IPsec. Unfortunately, most of the VPNs we're dealing > with now are TLS-based (and my dislike cannot alter this fact). I'd disagree with that, but that's another topic. :) Ralph -- Ralph Holz I8 - Network Architectures and Services Technische Universität München http://www.net.in.tum.de/de/mitarbeiter/holz/ Phone +49.89.289.18043 PGP: A805 D19C E23E 6BBB E0C4 86DC 520E 0C83 69B0 03EF _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
- [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA BCP Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Paul Lambert
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Yutaka OIWA
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Yutaka OIWA
- [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts (was: NULL cipher t… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Yutaka OIWA
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts (was: NULL ciph… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts (was: NULL ciph… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts (was: NULL ciph… Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] uta-tls-bcp-02 thoughts (was: NULL ciph… Barry Leiba
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Ralph Holz
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] NULL cipher to become a MUST NOT in UTA… Viktor Dukhovni